Couple of basic LaScala Questions

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I only made it through about 7 pages of this one. Meagin and Jeff can take a thread out to 20 pages like no one else around here!

Meagin,

In response to your original question, if they are local speakers, a good deal and will fit in with your plans, just buy them, you will be pleased. Remember how hard you labored over the K Horn decision (I hear K horns are good for this but not good for that, etc.)? You will like the LaScalas.

If you start removing beams, be careful that you do not remove a shear wall (newer homes have these). They have a board that runs diagonal (45 degrees to be exact - has to do with a cosine and sine being equal at 45 degrees) and/or a diaphragm (plywood, chipboard). These walls are connected to an exterior wall at 90 degrees to that wall. They help resist wind force against the side of the house.

Shear walls are found in newer homes, but then again, at Christmas someone told me that I have an "older" home because mine was built in 1999. I actually had people that would not look at my previous home because it was built in 1992, too old they said. (I live in an alternate universe where a nice "middle class" home will set you back $800,000 to $1,000,000, huge resorts are constantly imploded and every check out girl at the grocery store has fake boobs that she got when she was 18 as a graduation gift from her parents - I need to move).

So there you have it, two attorneys giving you building advice. One last piece of avdice, never take building advice, or any advice that concerns numbers, from attorenys! Most attorneys can barely add and could not change a tire if their life depended on it.

Jeff,

If you lived here we would have to hang out. I am going to finish drafting a purchase agreement then work on some framing to box in a bunch of plumbing that I added for a few sinks in my "old house."

Chris

[Mike Lindsey]

Touchy, touchy! I think all amps can rock your world..... with the right parts.

Touchy, touchy? I don't think it's touchy. I just don't like it when people spread misinformation.

Mike, do you know of any reason why my Marantz 30wpc can't run you out of your room? It's almost double yours in power. .

I've never heard the Marantz before so cannot comment on that. I would tend to believe what Craig said, however.

Regardless, I don't want to get into a pissing match about this, but like all speakers the sound is going to depend on the networks, the amp, the source, and the recording. The La Scala's, however, will sound worse if any of those aren't up to standards.

Mike

[NOSValves]

'her' []

Ooops sorry []

[Jeff Matthews]

Cornwalls sound like sh!t just like any descent speaker when attached to gear not working properly. If they didn't then I myself would start to worry. I myself was more concerned with him making some judgement on tube gear based on 45+ year old amp that is surely not working properly. Heck I believe the Marantz 1030 is 30+ year old also. Do you really think this stuff is suppose to last that long without attention? Give me a break.

Craig

"when not working properly".... or just a piece to begin with. Craig, what you say makes sense, except that you are leaving out the category of amps that just isn't good. These do exist - I don't care if the first watt is the most important or what.

There are cruddy SS's, cruddy tubes, decent in each category, and great in each category. So, no, I am not saying all tubes suck. Yours are good by the way.

I am saying what Meagain heard must have sucked. LaScalas are a great speaker. Muddy bass? What's that tell you? I am sure you, yourself, can vouch that the LaScala's bass is as fast as the Khorn's. Might not go as low, but certainly not muddy. And the low that is not there is nothing all that significant.

She heard them driven by a junker - period.

[meagain]

Which is why I'm still considering them. There's FAR too many posts describing the bass as fast, tight, punchy. Let's put aside the "depth" of bass issue for a bit....

Listened to accoustic bass. The notes were not distinct. They sort of waddled into each other. Not crisp, no vibration on the fretboard, plucking sound, etc. I would call it muddy/boomy compared to my khorns. A strong dissapointment.

Vocals, higher stuff sounded great. Filled the air, etc. What I'm used to & expected. Happy with it.

Question - I'm assuming a given amp would flavor the 'entire' spectrum but perhaps I'm wrong. So would it affect 'everything'? Or could it merely affect one part like the lower frequencies? That's what I'm confused about. If everything sounded off across the board, blaming the amp would make sense. If it IS possible it would affect only certain aspects (say, the bass), I have to consider this, throw caution to the wind, and pray they sound proper in my home. But I almost find that illogical?

[Jeff Matthews]

All kidding aside and without trying to explain the science of it (since I am not a scientist and every time I try, the would-be scientists come flocking), the LaScalas will sound fabulous when driven with a good amp. They will give your KHorns a very decent run for their money.

And Corns will, too. They exhibit a little more effort, but man, do they go. Those who downplay the mids/highs of the Corns can't be that serious. They, too, will give KHorns a decent run for the money. Those were my comments as a novice, brand new KHorn owner, and I stick by them.

I like Corns because I think you can feel them "dig" into the low end. Direct radiators have a different sound quality than horns. I think Dean calls it distortion and tells me it's bad, but whatever it is, it puts the "fun" in funk.

Either of the 2 are just fine, and when driven by good equipment, you can't go wrong.

[BEC]

For "muddy", weak bass on a Lascala (or other speaker), first thing to do is loosen up all the screws on the crossover terminal strips and the separate woofer terminal strip and then retighten them. Sometimes a bit of corrosion forms under the screws and becomes a significant resistance in series with the woofer. The bass on one set of my Lascalas was terrible until I did that. Lots more likely for that to be the problem than a bad amp in my opinion.

Bob Crites

[Jeff Matthews]

The point is "They sound great." Right. Bob?

[PrestonTom]

I always find it interesting that many folks entirely ignore some simple issues of physics when they talk about "fixing" problems in bass response.

Unless an amp is mediocre, underpowered or lacking in current capability, it is probably not the problem. Klipsch speakers are not low impedance and they have plenty of sensitivity. This is not a terrible load on a decent amp of sufficient power.

Let's consider the physics. It is fairly simple. At a 100 Hz the wavelength is 10ft at & 50 Hz it is 20 ft. compare this to the size of your room. This presents some difficulties since there are standing waves (room modes) that will greatly exaggerate (or minimize) the bass response. The are also a number of large reflecting surfaces, this will provide an excessive reverberation time at the low frequencies.

Now, why is it difficult to imagine that some will hear the same speaker in different environment and have a very different opinion about its fidelity? It really isn't surprising since simply moving the speaker around in the same room can have substantial effects.

Notice this is a very simple (possible) explanation. It does not require any voodoo about rebuilding amps. It does not require any argument about whether the wattage is coming from tubes vs SS. It does, however, point to a very different direction on how to effectively solve the problem.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[maxg]

I just read all 14 pages of this thread and am now almost too tired to write (almost).

Correct me if I am wrong but Meagain is thinking of using a pair of LaScala's for rears.

I dont think the bass response of rear speakers is all that important in surround sound. You just set them to small (Xover usually at around 80 Hz) and if you dont have a sub the mains (set to large) will fill in the missing bass.

The sonic match between LaScala's and Khorns is nigh on perfect - the bass should not be an issue - and if it is a sub is the answer, is it not?

[J.4knee]

Ahh...the voice of reason.

[Jeff Matthews]

Ahh...the voice of reason.

Except if the LaScala's really suck!!!! []

Actually, Max, you're right on, dude!

I think it's funny. "Hmmmm. LaScalas for HT rears? I don't know..... They might be lacking..... Hmmmmmm...." For HT? LaScalas are huge overkill - which isn't always bad. But underkill? Never.

I went to Edwards Cinemas and noted they have JBL's on the walls - in between the size of Heresies and Corns. I think you'd be out-classing Edwards Cinemas with LaScalas. IMHO.

[meagain]

Well, we hooked up KG4s for surround w/the Khorns and listened to 5:1 recorded CD's and concert DVDs to glean how much comes out of them and we were astonished at the amount of music pushed through them. It was full. Not just little nuances like crowd noise, etc. The CD's especially (Porcupine Tree's "Deadwing" for instance).

We learned that the quality of the surround speakers are VERY important.

That said - IDK enough about Hz levels, etc. to truely know (in real life terms) where the squawker takes over. I did read that the Squawker does cover alot of ground. Maybe more than I realise. But Mike is right, with the AVR receiver, I can tweak things vastly. To have all the same horns running at the same time would simply be kick-butt.

Where I vascillate is using them as mains which I'd like to do also. Since hubby & I seem to be the only people on this forum pegging the bass as boomy, tubby, non-distinct - I can only assume something's amiss and if I believe that.... cross my fingers, buy them, hope they magically pull themselves together with my amp/home/trying BEC's suggestion of unscrewing/rescrewing in the wire port thingies. A risky leap of faith that I either go for or not. Maybe I just gotta put my brave suit on.

IDK - Maybe they'd be in my home right now if they looked a bit better. I'm convinced that this birch plywood is paint grade. Meant for paint.

I assume painted black LS's were a premium over raw birch back in the day? Yes?

[Jeff Matthews]

I agree with you on the wood. But I agree with the others that a nice Golden to dark stain will hide alot of what you don't like. But, yes, that's the type of wood you would use for paint grade - at least what you showed on the inside bins with the little "duck-shaped" patterns.

They'd look real good stained, and I see no reason to hesitate, except for if you want to patiently hold out for something you don't question as much. It might be worth holding out. There are alot of good-looking LaScalas out there. In the meantime, you might run across some Corns and give them a listen.

[Deang]

Tom makes valid and important points, still -- I would like to add support to what Craig was saying: a 45 year old tube integrated that has never seen the top of a tech's workbench isn't going to do much except to allow you to hear a set of speakers at their near worst. The difference in performance from an 'as is' vintage tube amp and one that has been gone through is quite dramatic. Couple an old vintage amp with a set of old worn out networks and I would imagine the sound to be nothing short of terrible.

When shopping for these vintage speakers the only two things one should care about are physical condition and whether or not all of the drivers work. Anyone serious about their music knows they HAVE to replace the caps in the networks or replace them all-together -- and then run the speakers with some quality gear to get the most out of them.

The LaScala is a better speaker than the Cornwall. It has a bigger mid-horn and bass that has considerably less distortion than a non-horn loaded 15" driver. There is nothing here to debate about. Pushed against rear or side walls, or into corners -- they have solid output down to 50-45Hz. I know what Meagain listens to, and 50Hz is plenty good enough, especially in a rear channel application. Anyone moving into more movie watching invariably ends up with a sub anyways, and she can deal with that later. She should start by getting the best speaker she can afford, make it as good as she can get it, and then start upgrading her gear. This IS the recipe for success.

If a person wants to smooth the top end of the LaScala a bit to get a voicing more similiar to the klipschorn -- one should get some grill cloth over the top section.

Instead of simply loosening and tightening the screws on the terminal strip, they should be cleaned with a brass brush and wiped with denatured alcohol. Spades should be cleaned with a scratch pad -- and also wiped down with Alcohol.

[J.4knee]

Well said Dean. IMO La Scala's are anything but overkill for an HT, I run three upfront, do I need a sub for HT? Yes! As for 2 Channel IMO they are awesome, I have modded mine w/511b's, new crossovers and new tweeter, not because I thought they sounded bad but because I wanted to take them as far as I could and still retain the Klipsch signature sound.

Re: the earlier comments addressing bass down to 20 hz and below, don't matter what you use you need a sub to get there. As far as Dean's comment about them being a better speaker than CW I whole heartedly agree. Lower distortion in the woofer coupled with a much better integrated midrange put them miles ahead IMO. I believe the poor (by comparison) integration of the mid range is one of the reasons why the bass sounds muddy on CW's to me. That is not an indictment of the CW it is just what I hear when listen to them.

Lets face it feeding a speaker with a poor or lessor quality amp results in poorer quality sound. Don't believe listen to my rig in 2 Channel using my Yamaha receiver vs my Scott 299B. The Yamaha does a decent job but it is lacking when used 2 channel and is more a multi-channel beast, best used for HT and multi-channel music tracks. In that setting the Yamaha does very well. It does not sound bad in 2 Channel but he 299B does a much better job in the stereo environment.

[meagain]

I'm being swayed. Heck - I could even put nice table cloths over them and lift them up for listening. Easy peasy! []

Oh! One thing I forgot (and this might be important)... The seller (who is Klipsch-knowledgable) told me when he got them, one had a ceramic magnet tweeter which was replaced with a period-correct alnico so they both match. It sounded fine to me.

I've not heard a single mention of woofer problems here so I'm assumeing they are fine, but I'll ask about that more. I honestly don't even recall there being a way to get inside there. I don't recall any trap doors.

[Jeff Matthews]

Lets face it feeding a speaker with a poor or lessor quality amp results in poorer quality sound. Don't believe listen to my rig in 2 Channel using my Yamaha receiver vs my Scott 299B. The Yamaha does a decent job but it is lacking when used 2 channel and is more a multi-channel beast, best used for HT and multi-channel music tracks. In that setting the Yamaha does very well. It does not sound bad in 2 Channel but he 299B does a much better job in the stereo environment.

What model Yamaha?

[SCOOTERDOG]

Hmmm...

La Scala's in a home theater being overkill...Not! At least not in my HT.

[Jeff Matthews]

That's funny, Scooter. I was just admiring your pics in HT. Very nice. Your LS's are mains. That's different. Plus, your room is huge. I'm not saying LS's won't work in rear surrounds. Of course, they will. I was saying less will do just fine - like Heresies. Whatever, though. To each is own.

Your set-up is first-class. You must be proud after all those cuts and bruises!