Back To The K77s

[garymd]

After 5 days of listening, I've gone back to the K77s. I suppose I'll be the first to admit I like them better in my Khorns afterall.

I know this is a flipflop from a prior review but I hadn't really listened to enough different types of music and recordings to fully appreciate the pros and cons of the new Crites Specials.

Classic reissues of rock LPs sound better to me with the Crites tweeters. I suppose those were the ones I expected to benefit which may be why I played a lot of those in the beginning of my trial. These are heavy bass recordings that really benefit from the higher extension and additional detail.

After listening to some of my favorite MFSL and jazz LPs, it was clear to me that I prefer the less bright sound of the K77 overall. Nothing against the new tweeters. This has to do with the type of music I listen to the majority of the time and my system which is very detailed to begin with including the particular tubes I use, my crossover settings, TT/Arm/Cart, etc. and the fact that I listen to vinyl 99.9% of the time.

I fell in love with the Klipsch sound a long time ago and the K77 is part of that sound for me. I'm sending them off to another forum member who hasn't tried them yet. I'll be curious to hear his opinion and others as more and more folks give them a try.

[Al Klappenberger]

Gary,

What type of K77 are you using? If it's the older round-magnet AlNiCo verion, that may explain it. They are less efficient than the newer square magnet K77M version. This will make the overall sound a bit "softer", or maybe "duller", depending on your point of view. Bob's new tweeter has the advantage of being a drip-in upgrade, but it also has the ability to work down lower then the K77. This will let you get away from the K400 horn sooner by lowering the crossover to 4500 Hz. Dean and I are considering developing 4500 Hz networks to allow this. Turning the new tweeter vertically will help too, especially with the lower crossover frequency. Of course, I also offer the Trachorn to replece the K400 horn completely. It will work nicely with any crossover from 4500Hz all the way to 10KHz! The bottom line is not to give up on the new tweeter yet. It will open up a world of possibilities.If it's just to loud, there always the option to attenuate it with a pad or transformer. This is what I suggest you try first.

Al K.

[fini]

I think Gary just needed an excuse to order the translucent horns... ;^)

[rplace]

Al, why would the vertical mounting help? Are you saying it would be better for Gary's particular set up and what he is hearing or it would be better for all/most situations?

[garymd]

Al,

Yes, I have the round magnet K77 vintage 1976. I am also using Dean's Super AA networks which are very detailed. There is a texture to the K77s that I don't hear in Bob's tweeters. They sound less like a horn to me then the K77. It's hard to explain.

I'm not the type who's going to mod my board to turn it vertically. I just won't do it. Anyway, I really don't think that would change my opinion. It's more than just that.

I love the sound of Klipsch. That's the bottom line here I think. I've heard the Altec 511s and 811s and prefer the stock horns in my 3-way Khorns and Cornwalls. What can I say??? I gave them a try.

[Allan Songer]

One man's "extended and clean" is another man's "piercing."

My tweeters arrive today and I will be mounting them this weekend--and they will be VERTICAL, as I have no choice in my Cornwalls!

I'll let you all know what I think . . .

[Deang]

Instead of lowering the performance of the speaker to accomodate less than stellar recordings it would be better to attenuate the tweeter just a bit. The little Eminence tweeter has great dynamics, puts good air around everything, and really does a bang up job of accurately rendering the decay properties of bells and cymbals. People who are struggling trying find good balance at the top might consider getting a pair of Al's attenuators.

I now have to go kick Al for bringing up the network issue!

[Al Klappenberger]

rplace,

The K77 / T35t horn is a diffraction horn. When you run it 6000 Hz and up, like all the existing Klipsch netwroks now do, it doesn't matter how you mount it. BUT: if you run it down to 4500 Hz it is better mounted vertically. The trick is moving the crossover down to 4500 to take advantag of this. It will require new networks that are being considered. The details are far from nailed down though. I just want guys who have already bought the new BEC tweeter to realize the possibilities they give you.

Al K.

EDIT: *************

Dean, I was just referring to the ES4500 I am going to prototype and send to him as an experiment. He just loves listening to various combination of components and I value his opinion. It is a simple and logical extension to my line of extreme-slope squawker / tweeter networks. I have the ES5800, ES7500 and ES8500. Why not an ES4500? I also posted a 4500 Hz version of my original "ALK" in an earlier post just for the DIY croud. Actually building those is a big step for me. I guess I shuldn't have said anything about any of it yet. I am just excited about all the possibilities!

[Mike Lindsey]

I gotta say, I really like the new tweeters. My K-77's were the square magnet ones from my 86 La Scala's. I love the sound with the ALKs and the 511B's. Very crisp and detailed without being too forward.

Mike

[BEC]

Gary wrote me a nice email about this last night. The old K-77s are not really uniform in output. Perhaps they were at one time. If a person takes twenty of so of a combination of K-77s and K-77Ms, and tries to match up pairs of them, you find the output across that group varies 3 db or more. That is even after diaphragm replacement. The alnico ones vary more than the ceramics as a group, but in a given large number of them there could be an alnico with more output than any of the ceramics.

In lots of cases also the alnico magnet K-77s only make it to 12 khz or so. Most of the K-77Ms make it close to the 17 khz number. An interesting thing about old K-77s is that if the 2 being compared have always been a pair from the factory, a diaphragm replacement almost always results in a very well balanced pair of tweeters. Just taking two K-77s at random and trying to make a pair out of them is sometimes impossible even after a rebuild. Back a few years ago, I had a very large number of individual K-77Ms that I had rebuilt and then tried to find pairs of those that matched so I could sell them in pairs. I still have one K-77M from that group that is so hot that it matches no other K-77 tweeter well enough to pair with it.

Anyway, there may be an explanation of why Gary likes the old tweeters better than the new ones based just on the individual tweeters he is replacing or I would also leave room for this just being a matter of personal preference. The new tweeters are technically better by measurement than the K-77 and to me they also sound better. I never expected that 100 percent of listeners would prefer the new tweeters to the K-77.

Bob Crites

[Deang]

One man's "extended and clean" is another man's "piercing."

Interesting observation. I associate "piercing" with pain, which I certainly don't get with the Eminence driver. The K-77-M OTOH ...

This situation is unusual, and I think it makes more sense to say it's a situation dictated by the recordings Gary enjoys.

Maybe I should bring back the Jensens in a Type A network and call it "The Blue Note Special".

[garymd]

One man's "extended and clean" is another man's "piercing."

Interesting observation. I associate "piercing" with pain, which I certainly don't get with the Eminence driver. The K-77 OTOH ...

You obviously haven't heard mine.[]

[J.4knee]

I have mine knocked down a notch now using my "treble control" I beleive I will be getting a set of these in the near future.

[jwc]

Kudos to Gary being honest.

I think the CT 125 is a great drop in replacement for the Heritage line. It will be more reliable and durable. Plus you will get great support from Bob.

Some are saying this new tweeter is leaps and bounds over the K-77. I will say it is as least as good or better. I found no disappointment with the CT 125. I however, don't see a reason for people to rush out and replace a good working K77 with this new tweeter. You will get what you pay for. Bob's price is very good.

That being said. I have another DIY project upcoming and just ordered a pair CT125's and his CW 1526 woofers.

jc

[mowntnbkr]

When you talk about mounting vertically, what exactly are you doing? I am taking this in the literal sense, meaning you cut a new hole and turn the horn 90 degrees. For some reason that just doesn't sound right, or does it have to do with the way the driver is mounted?

[Mike Lindsey]

When you talk about mounting vertically, what exactly are you doing? I am taking this in the literal sense, meaning you cut a new hole and turn the horn 90 degrees. For some reason that just doesn't sound right, or does it have to do with the way the driver is mounted?

You've got it right. The motherboard would have to be cut going north and south, and the horn mounted vertically.

Mike

[Deang]

I however, don't see a reason for people to rush out and replace a good working K77 with this new tweeter.

I strongly disagree.

Terminate the woofer at the network with an 8 ohm resistor.

Terminate the squawker with a 15 ohm resistor.

Now, compare the tweeters.

[jwc]

Dean. I may try that. I have already demo'd the CT125 with a 3rd order filter. When I get the next set, I can try further tinkering.

However, my comments are regarding a "drop in replacement". I obviously like the product because I just ordered some. However, when I Just dropped the tweeter in my cornscalas, Again, It was better....Just not leaps and bounds over the sound of my K77M's. It didn't do what my JBL2404's did.

The price is right, durable with good support. It is what it is.

I may jump on that test. However, I had different ones in mind.

oopps. By the way. The K77's I compared them too have new diaphragms installed by BEC. Might be important.

[NOSValves]

You know there has to be a point where are Klipsch speakers are not Klipsch anymore....... I for one like trying these new mods but to say any of them are some huge leap forward is just crazy. Yes they bring some things into the mix that are enjoyable. But in some ways they also seem to turn are once human sounding speakers into technical analytical beasts. There is more to better then simple specifications and testing.

what brought us all to Klipsch??????

My pair of Lascalas in my shop are completely modified and IMHO can not be considered Klipsch anymore.... Do they sound good......You bet

My 1994 Lascalas in my living room are 100% Klipsch with the only modification being Stock value replacement capacitors in the crossovers. Do they sound great......YOU BET

I get tired of hearing how the K-400 is junk

I get tired of hearing that this K77 only reaches to 12Khz

Venting over....bring on the flames.

Craig

[rplace]

Craig, I could not agree more. I hear all these mods described as night and day, jaw dropping, OMG, unbelievable...etc.

I have yet to change any one piece of equipment or any component of a piece of equipment and hear a revolutionary change. Improvements yes, differences yes...was that difference better...maybe, maybe not.

I think my biggest disappointment was my XO change. And not because of the resultant sound but my overly high expectations based on every one else's rantings and ravings. I was so fired up to be blown away that there was no way they could possibly live up to my expectations. There was actually things I liked better about my '87 AK2s.

It seems to me that there is this group think mentality going on here, or perhaps a case of the "Emperors New Clothes". One guy says it is the end all be all, and the other lemmings don't want to buck the trend. Or perhaps I just don't hear all that well.

If you already have a decent set of Heritage speakers and reasonably good equipment it takes a lot to make a major change.

For the record, I am happy with most of the mods/changes I have tired from forum suggestions. Keep them coming. But I also think we need to take a long hard look at the overly enthusiastic reactions thrown out.

Final note. To date the biggest single improvement I have made was my absorption and diffusion room treatments. Not a single change to equipment or parts of equipment had as much of an impact. Heck, I doubt all the other mods combined did not make that much of a difference. Still the room treatments were not "jaw dropping". Change for the better for sure...would I remove them, no way. Day and night change, NOT.