Allan Songer Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Here is a side by side of the original T35 and the new Crites tweeter: Here is the inside of one of my Cornwalls: I spent several hours last evening and three more this morning listening with the new tweeters installed. I listened to CDs and LPs. both Stereo and Mono. All jazz (or course!) but a BUNCH of different stuff--everything from Miles Davis' "On the Corner" to Louis Armstong and Ella. I have to say these tweeters make a HUGE difference on most of the music I listened to. I am shocked at how MUCH differnce they make, actually! The only time I thought the tweeters might actually be IMPROVING the sound was with the loud, electric Miles stuff from the 70's--you know, loud electric guitar, screaming electric piano and the like--this music seemed to open up a bit when compared to what I'm used to. But in ever other case I have to say I do NOT like what these tweeters do to the sound of my system. They are VERY fatiguing and even shrill at times--maybe some of you hear this as "clarity" but what I am hearing is the whole upper register being somewhat disembodied, if you will, from the rest of the music----forward and sharp and not to my liking at all. I am going to keep them in for a few days and report back after I switch back to the T35s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piranha Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Interesting observations. I am curious to know what you think after you switch back to your T35s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Allan, Interesting response. I was very interested to see how these played out for folks who did not have KH/LS/BK or essentially those who possessed a somewhat less efficient speaker to put them in. Also you are running an older version of the K77/T35. I think most of us who have favored them so far have been running the K77M and later iterations of the tweeter. I think having newer style network plays into this some. Please correct me if I am wrong but your network does not allow for adjustment of the squawker levels and I found I had to make and adjustment in my networks to tame my squawker some, primarily because to me the 511 seems a tad hotter than the K400/401 when connected to the same driver. None the less though it was not until I made that change and then tried my old K77M's again and reinstalled the CT 125 that I found I favored them. Another big factor is you were essentially at "nirvana" with your systems sound to begin with. That is a touchy thing to alter, I'd expect initially any change would almost have a negative effect until you adapted to it some. It took me a while. Anyway thanks for an interesting initial write up. Keep us posted on your observations. R/Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I didn't know those old chromies came in 8 ohms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Alan, Do you know if your T-35s are 8 or 16 ohm? If they are 16 ohm, you would have gained about 3 db when you put in the new 8 ohm tweeter. I believe your crossover is made for an 8 ohm tweeter. Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 The networks are "home made" versions of the updated ALK B network using Jensen PIO caps. There is no way to "adjust" anything without swapping parts and getting out the soldering iron. The early T35s were always chrome--8 or 16 ohm--as far as I know. Mine are stamped "8 ohm." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Maybe your recordings are just "fatiguing" and "shrill". Sorry, couldn't help it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 "PIO caps".... Allan - did you build those crossovers yourself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 Maybe your recordings are just "fatiguing" and "shrill". Sorry, couldn't help it. For some that is most assuredly true. All I can do is share what I'm hearing, some 3000 miles from Baltimore . . . Just listened to the Bill Holman band "Brilliant Corners," a JVC XRCD. Never heard it quite so "brilliant" before. There is a shimmer that I just can't get past--but I'm still listening . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Exact description of what I heard also. Interesting. Maybe it's a jazz thing or the older K77s although mine are nothing like Allan's. Allan - Is it fair to say they enirely changed the sonic signature of your speakers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 Exact description of what I heard also. Interesting. Maybe it's a jazz thing or the older K77s although mine are nothing like Allan's. Allan - Is it fair to say they enirely changed the sonic signature of your speakers? Yes. Was just litening to an Art Hoyle muted trumpet solo and with the new tweeters it actually HURT at high volumes--never before did that happen. I had to turn down the volume. I'm soldiering on . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Allan, This is pretty much what I described as well. Does it change much when you shift ear position between on- and off-axis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I know Gary and Allan are using older K77's, but Larry what K77 iteration are you running in your KHorns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 I know Gary and Allan are using older K77's, but Larry what K77 iteration are you running in your KHorns? I was curious about this also. I thought Larry had the complete AK4 upgrade in his Khorns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Correct, I do have the AK-4 K-77's. I posted my comments in Gary's Back-to-K77's thread (10th page I think). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Larry is running the K-77-F, which is really just a K-77-M with the older style diaphragms. Not much of an issue. However, what is an issue, and something I've pointed out in several other threads -- the AK-4 is an optimized network incorporating EQ in all three sections of the filter. So, I'm not surprised by anything that might happen by dropping a different driver into that tweeter filter. Also, once again: the old T35's suffer from limited bandwidth, and considering their age there is sure to be some loss of magnetic strength (alnico). So, 5000 cycles less and probably down 3dB in comparison to both the K-77-M and the Eminence. The answer here is a good attenuator so you can take advantage of the addtional extension. Lastly, after reading Larry's last detailed post on his findings I decided to do some research, and it appears that dispersion is predominately determined by the horn itself, and since Bob made sure the phase plug on the APT-50 is in the same relationship to the new horn as it with the original -- I can't find any reason that accounts for the 'odd' off axis behavior (that can be directly related to the new driver). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 Just so you know, I had my old chrome T35s "overhauled" by OC Speaker about 5-6 years ago which included recharging the alnico magnets. I have no idea if that is really even possible, but they told me they do it "all the time." I had a diaphragm go bad and had BOTH tweeters redone and it wasn't cheap--something like $150 for the pair if I remember correctly. When I got them back they sounded great--eveything they used to be but with a bit of added "clarity" in the uppermost registers. I jsut listened to "Other Voices, Other Blues." a great Sun Ra quartet date from the late 70's. This recording sounds very nice with the new tweets--could absolutely live with them with this record. I'm still listening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Allan, There are several issues with tweeters and your home-made version of my network. First off, if that T-35 is 16 Ohms it would make a real mess of the frequency rsponse through the tweeter filter of my network. The other thing is those paper caps you put in there. They are lossey things and will be robbing you of highs. With a hot tweeter this mightseem to be a good thing. Since there is no squawker tap adjustments on my "B" network there isn't much you can do to adjust the balance. All you could do is get rid of the losey paper caps and put in good Polypropylene caps to get the level up then add a pad to adjust it where you want it. This will flatten the response. The lossey caps will cause a greater loss of the lower highs than the upper highs. This is something filter technicians call "D-ing off". I will bet that the new tweeter is simply hoter than the old T-35. As I am sure you are aware, I have no respect for paper-in-oil caps at all. That should help explain were I'm comming from! AL K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Allan, ...Does it change much when you shift ear position between on- and off-axis? Allan, could you take a moment to see whether you hear this too? Thanks,Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted March 11, 2006 Author Share Posted March 11, 2006 Larry--I don't hear this, but then I have Cornwalls and you have Khorns . . . My T35s are 8 OHM and say so right on the back of the magnet. So, the whole 16 ohm issue is DOA. I guess I like lossy caps. I love your networks, Al--love them even more with the lossy caps than with the Solens. I'm guessing the lossy caps coupled with the old alnico tweeters are a sweet combonation to my ears. What I strive for in my system is to come as close as possible to the way live jazz sounds and the combonation I've hit on comes the closest for me-closer than any I've heard in my home. I don't really give two hoots and a holler (as my grandpappy used to say) if this is the most "accurate" reproduction of the original recording--in fact I am SURE it's NOT--but SO WHAT? I'm heading out to Charlie O's this evening to hear John Heard with Rickey Woodard (GREAT tenor sax man). Here's Rickey: http://www.content.loudeye.com/scripts/hurl.exe?clipid=000327801060006900&cid=600111 I think I'll go pop in one of his CDs. And if you feel like buying one of his albums, by all means DO so!! He'd really appreciate it! http://www.rickeywoodard.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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