Initial impressions of Crites tweeter in Vertical Cornwalls . . .

[garymd]

For me, it isn't so much the increased dbs or extension as it is the tonal quality. I like the gritty, live sound of the K77s and I don't think any amount of attenuation would change my opinion.

[IB Slammin]

Allan,

Interesting response. I was very interested to see how these played out for folks who did not have KH/LS/BK or essentially those who possessed a somewhat less efficient speaker to put them in. Also you are running an older version of the K77/T35. I think most of us who have favored them so far have been running the K77M and later iterations of the tweeter. I think having newer style network plays into this some. Please correct me if I am wrong but your network does not allow for adjustment of the squawker levels and I found I had to make and adjustment in my networks to tame my squawker some, primarily because to me the 511 seems a tad hotter than the K400/401 when connected to the same driver. None the less though it was not until I made that change and then tried my old K77M's again and reinstalled the CT 125 that I found I favored them. Another big factor is you were essentially at "nirvana" with your systems sound to begin with. That is a touchy thing to alter, I'd expect initially any change would almost have a negative effect until you adapted to it some. It took me a while. Anyway thanks for an interesting initial write up. Keep us posted on your observations.

R/Jim

Help me here.

If the 511 is hot and the CT125 is hot, then why would backing off the mids make it a better blend? Seems like it would push the tweet even more forward.

Starting to think that the difference in our rooms and/or crossovers could be a factor. ???

[LarryC]

Hmm -- So Allan doesn't hear a change off axis from his, whereas it was clearly audible with mine. I asked him to check because I was thinking he might have an uneven polar response (is that the right term?) like mine, too hot on axis and too dull by 20-30 degrees off-axis. Like Gary, though, I also thought the tonal quality somehow wasn't the same as the mid-driver/horn, and adjusting db's wasn't going to do it for me.

In my K's, the K-77 has a wonderful blend of dispersion and sound quality with the mid and bass horns over the entire horizontal 90 degrees, while my CT-125's lacked that. Bob will give them a listen.

[J.4knee]

Allan,

Interesting response. I was very interested to see how these played out for folks who did not have KH/LS/BK or essentially those who possessed a somewhat less efficient speaker to put them in. Also you are running an older version of the K77/T35. I think most of us who have favored them so far have been running the K77M and later iterations of the tweeter. I think having newer style network plays into this some. Please correct me if I am wrong but your network does not allow for adjustment of the squawker levels and I found I had to make and adjustment in my networks to tame my squawker some, primarily because to me the 511 seems a tad hotter than the K400/401 when connected to the same driver. None the less though it was not until I made that change and then tried my old K77M's again and reinstalled the CT 125 that I found I favored them. Another big factor is you were essentially at "nirvana" with your systems sound to begin with. That is a touchy thing to alter, I'd expect initially any change would almost have a negative effect until you adapted to it some. It took me a while. Anyway thanks for an interesting initial write up. Keep us posted on your observations.

R/Jim

Help me here.

If the 511 is hot and the CT125 is hot, then why would backing off the mids make it a better blend? Seems like it would push the tweet even more forward.

Starting to think that the difference in our rooms and/or crossovers could be a factor. ???

OK 511b to me is hotter than the k400/401 by a couple db. My initial observation when I put the CT 125 in was that is was not as efficient as the K77. The K77M has a bump in output at 6-8KHZ so to me it was a bit weaker than the K77M. I dropped a tap on my squawker attenuation and everything balanced better except the drop in squawker level has my tweeters needing a slight drop regardless of which one I use. Actually I find myself vacillating over whether my tweeter needs attenuated or not. Some songs yes and other no. Which leads me to believe it is a recording issue not a tweeter issue. So Mr. Treble control gets employed once in awhile

The CT 125 is hotter than the older K77 tweeters but not the K77M or newer. To me the CT 125 is more realistic, cleaner and smoother in my set up. As I indicated in Gary's thread on cymbals and other high frequency producing instruments it finishes better where the K77M seemed to end a little abruptly and you do not hear the decay of the sound as much. Hope this helps.

I believe networks do play in this some as well as personal preferences and of course which iteration of the K77 you have. If your system is set up so your T35 or older K77 sounds good this tweeter will probably seem too hot.

[sfogg]

Allan,

"My T35s are 8 OHM and say so right on the back of the magnet."

Was that sticker there before or after they were rebuilt? If that is

what they were from the factory you really don't know if they are still

8 ohm after having them rebuilt. They could have put in 16 ohm

diaphragms.

Recharging Alinco magnets is possible and fairly common. Alinco can loose its magentism if it is overpowered.

Shawn

[Allan Songer]

They have factory printing that says "8 ohm" and OC Speaker rebuilt them as 8 Ohm--they specifically told me that 8 Ohm chrome T35s were pretty uncommon.

[Deang]

"Alinco can loose its magentism if it is overpowered."

or dropped (I think, or so I have heard.

511 "hotter"? No, not really. However, lower distortion and the increased clarity might give you the impression it's more forward. Also consider the changes in the frequency response, and where in the response the differences are. The ear is more sensitive to changes in some areas than others.

Carefully consider the differences in the drivers too. For example, in the plot below Lee Clinton used the spring loaded K-55-V. As I learned last year from Trey and Steve P., the K-55-M is about 2dB hotter than the K-55-V. Now, look at the plot, and take note of the difference between the three horns between 1500 and 6000. Think about the difference in output in that range between a person running any of those horns with a K-55-V as opposed the K-55-M.

My Type A network is actually the same network some use for their CornScalas: 6.8uF for the primary, with the Trachorn off tap three.

[3dzapper]

Amazing Dean, that FR chart is exactly how I hear those three horns. K-400 uneven at the lower mids, 511 rolled off not "edgy" enough for my tastes and the trachorn just about right on.

This tweeter thing just gets curiouser and curiouser.

[IB Slammin]

........"511 "hotter"? No, not really. However, lower distortion and the increased clarity might give you the impression it's more forward"......

Deano,

Pick me up, I am on the floor![]

I never thought that you would have (admit) that kind of comment about the 511b! You are right, not exclusive to one component, but in general. When one hears more detail and clarity than before, one tends to thinks that the unit is more forward or hot. It is not necessarily hot, it is that sometimes, you are hearing more information from the source. More than before the component change. ( a loose quote from ALK " the trachorn sounds like a dampened 511b" for example.)

The CT125 is not a JBL small-cheek tweeter. Not even close. BUT, it is much better than my '75 round mag K77's and is a cost-effect improvment for me at this time. My '75 CWs are open to any constructive mods and/or upgrades that might improve their performance, . So are the four Heresy ones. They are my play-with toys. The 73' verts(my first Klipsch) will always stay stock other than cap refreshments.

Regards to you and Deb,

tc

[Deang]

Rick -- I believe it is the same with the tweeters -- it's all about attenuation. Networks come strongly into play here too. Look at the pattern that's developed:

1) People dump their old lossy filters and replace them with new low loss networks -- what are they reporting? It sounds better, but when they turn it up it's "too bright", "spitty", "pierces my ears", etc.

2) People swap out the K-whatever with another horn, and they say it sounds better, but when they turn it up it's "too in my face", "overbearing", etc.

3) People swap out a tweeter for one with extended bandwidth and flatter response and feel like they're being driven out of the room by the treble output. There is also the issue of frequency response and the rated sensitivity of the driver. Look:

K-77-M, 105db/2.83v

APT-50 (BEC), 105db/2.83v

Beyma CP-35, 104db/2.83v

JBL 2404H, 105db/2.83

We know the majority of JBL and Beyma users are attenuating 3 to 6db. Still think the K-77-M is 105db/2.83v? I don't, and haven't for a long time. If it is, it's only because the sensitivity rating was obtained by taking the highest point in the FR. Now, look at the Eminence plot for the APT-50 . Like the Beyma and JBL -- it really is 105db/2.83v!

Those wishing to raise the bar by using low loss filters and higher performance drivers are going to have to work to get the balance back into their systems, and the way to do it is with quality attenuators and/or EQ.

[Deang]

Hi Terry -- I've never heard 511B's, but I am a user of Al's Trachorns.

[mikebse2a3]

They have factory printing that says "8 ohm" and OC Speaker rebuilt them as 8 Ohm--they specifically told me that 8 Ohm chrome T35s were pretty uncommon.

Hi Allan

If you have any doubt about the impedance of your T35s then you can measure them with an Ohm Meter.

8 Ohm impedance diaphrams will measure close to 6.2 Ohm dc resistance on your meter.

mike[]

[garymd]

Here's Allan's thread.

[Rudy81]

Got it. Another interesting review.

[DrWho]

Maybe it's a jazz thing or the older K77s although mine are nothing like Allan's.

Maybe it's a vinyl thing... []

I say it mostly in jest...

[Parrot]

Here is a side by side of the original T35 and the new Crites tweeter:

Here is the inside of one of my Cornwalls:

I spent several hours last evening and three more this morning listening with the new tweeters installed.

I listened to CDs and LPs. both Stereo and Mono. All jazz (or course!) but a BUNCH of different stuff--everything from Miles Davis' "On the Corner" to Louis Armstong and Ella.

I have to say these tweeters make a HUGE difference on most of the music I listened to. I am shocked at how MUCH differnce they make, actually!

The only time I thought the tweeters might actually be IMPROVING the sound was with the loud, electric Miles stuff from the 70's--you know, loud electric guitar, screaming electric piano and the like--this music seemed to open up a bit when compared to what I'm used to.

But in ever other case I have to say I do NOT like what these tweeters do to the sound of my system. They are VERY fatiguing and even shrill at times--maybe some of you hear this as "clarity" but what I am hearing is the whole upper register being somewhat disembodied, if you will, from the rest of the music----forward and sharp and not to my liking at all.

I am going to keep them in for a few days and report back after I switch back to the T35s.

A few observations:

1) Allan's midrange appears to be made out of modeling clay. I suspect the relevant frequencies are severely diminished.

2) This would explain why he is always talking about the *bass* sounding lifelike. The woofer is mostly what he is hearing.

3) I think it's possible that when Allan auditioned the new tweeters, he didn't understand that they are supposed to be listened to with the rest of the speakers hooked up at the same time, not on their own. Obviously just by their lonesome selves they may very well sound fatiguing and of course they'd be disembodied because they need their brother mid and low frequencies of the audible spectrum to make a unified family presentation.

[NOSValves]

A few observations:

1) Allan's midrange appears to be made out of modeling clay. I suspect the relevant frequencies are severely diminished.

2) This would explain why he is always talking about the *bass* sounding lifelike. The woofer is mostly what he is hearing.

3) I think it's possible that when Allan auditioned the new tweeters, he didn't understand that they are supposed to be listened to with the rest of the speakers hooked up at the same time, not on their own. Obviously just by their lonesome selves they may very well sound fatiguing and of course they'd be disembodied because they need their brother mid and low frequencies of the audible spectrum to make a unified family presentation.

Your year is not up yet dude []

[Parrot]

Your year is not up yet dude []

What's 9 months between friends?

[garymd]

Welcome back Paul!! You have no idea how much you've been missed!!!!

[Parrot]

A mere hour goes by and sweet ol' Gary is flaming me.

My only question is, What took you so long?