Klipsch Modding - Has It Gone Too Far?

[Daddy Dee]

Gary is articulating something that I often reflect upon. I would add my disclaimer in the beginning, that if you are happy with what you are doing, more power to you. This is not to disrespect your taste or appreciation for the sound you achieve. I will certainly allow that what I like or conceive to be "Klipsch" is a subjective notion.

On the extreme, I see a number of folks with former Khorns, which have been modded to the degree that it is only the bass bin which remains functionally original. In my subjective judgement, these creations are no longer Khorns, but something else. Some are so extreme, they remind me of the old "funny car" dragsters. Putting a Camaro body shell on a dragster made it a Camaro, right?

What I have been hoping to do is enhance the sound of my Khorns, but have also had a sense for wanting them to retain the Klipsch sound. There have been times I've tried a mod, which after listening for a while, went back to something else and in addition to some notion of the sound, also enjoyed the thought that I liked what Mr. Paul sent out of the factory.

One example, at a gathering in my home two or three years ago, a buddy brought a pair of ALK's ES crossovers and Beyma tweeters. He installed them on my Khorns and I was blown away. We had a great time playing tunes at this gathering. Now, the ES crossovers were out of my budget, but I did acquire a pair of Beyma tweeters and listened to them for a while. Nothing against the Beymas, but they were too hot to use as drop in K77 replacements and I had no way, at the time, of providing a means of appropriate attenuation. So I put the k77's back in the system. Now, IMO, the Beymas are a better tweeter than the K77, but I went back to the K77 with some nostalgia and appreciation for the sound.

I don't think the forum membership could come to a consensus in answer to a question: "What mods make a Khorn not a Khorn?" But I do think there are a number of opinions in answer to that question.... kind of a subjective sense of what it means to be and remain "Klipsch".

One more thought... if you find yourself agreeing with this post...

... then you might be a hopless romantic.

[JJkizak]

I forgot to mention my hearing range is 19hz to 12.5khz. So anything over the high end I do not hear. That 12.5 khz cutoff is huge, I can't hear 12.6khz at all with the volume turned up.

JJK

[sunnysal]

asking for consensus on the mod issue is like asking for consensus on the SET issue. Dumb to even try it. "Slippery slope", "grey area" (not to be confused with "grey matter"), "matter of taste not tech" all apply here BIG TIME.

I have heard various mods and many make a big difference in sound, many made a big improvment in sound, others not. One either likes to try to improve the objective or subjective performance of one's equipment through modding or one does not. IMHO it is all the same thing, swap a wire, swap a driver/horn....same thing...one just costs a bit more...swap amps, swap amp topologies...IMHO if you are willing to do that then you should not reject swapping drivers and horns, IMHO....again, all the same thing...

Just like I have nothing against swapping out caps, coils and resistors in my crossover, amps, etc. in search for better sound, I have nothing against swapping out drivers or horns in my speakers. My JBL 2404H is a better tweeter than the k77 and it sounds better. I expect a better mid driver and horn would result in similar benefits (as tried by other member of this board) I have not taken that plunge however yet.

I will mod as much or as little as my ears and wallet tell me is right, in the end I am always searching for better sound, to me.

regards,

Tony

[gaspr]

Sunnysal

Very well said, couldn't agree with you more.

Garth

[chops]

See though, you guys have it easy with Khorn mods. If you want to change out the mid and tweet to something totally different, all you have to do is take off the original top half of your Khorns, store them in the closet and build new ones which is very easy to do. (just a simple baffle with a top and bottom board shaped like the original. All the EOM Klipsch is still intact.

Me OTOH with the Cornwalls, it's a bit more of a problem. I have no other choice than to either build all new custom CW clone cabinets or hack up the original motorboard which BTW is just something I cannot and will not bring myself to do. I guess I could build something to go on top of the CWs as an alternative.

Also, Dean or anyone else... Do you have anything to say about my last post up above about the squawker issues?

[3dzapper]

I have tried and rejected a number of squacker changes.I had Altec 511 horns with both Altec and Klipsch drivers and did not find them to my liking. Tried about 4 different 1" drivers on the K-400s and currently have trachorns. The constant in all of my trials has been that the K-55 is the best sounding driver in a Klipschorn.

I have not tried any 2" drivers but have heard 2" Altecs. Not my cup of tea. IMO Altecs lack the "bite" I like.

My favorite network is Al K's ALK Type A Universal having tried A, AA, recapped AAs, bypassed AAs as well. I built a pair of networks modeled on Dean/ALK's Jr design and found them quite nice on my Belles. They are currently out on loan.

For tweeters, I don't think any reasonably priced compression driver can match the sound and dispersion of the JBL 2404H when properly attenuated to the efficiency of the Khorn.

Through all of those changes, except the 511s with poor WAF, the external looks have not changed from that which left Hope in 1977.

PWK had a policy that any "upgrades" made to the Khorn would be available to current owners to upgrade to the newest and greatest. The current AK-4 option is available to all even today. Several of us here have taken advantage of the AK-4 package to upgrade their Khorns.

Rick

[Q-Man]

This same topic was discussed a couple of years ago.

To me the Klipsch sound is the Klipschorn, I like bass horns and the Klipschorn is a rather good one. Paul could do wonders with low priced drivers and horns. Paul himself said that the Klipschorn was a tweakers dream. No matter what you do with the top hat, it's still a Klipschorn, because of the bass horn. I have no interest in any of the other Klipsch speakers.

Modding is fun and interesting, and you can learn alot by doing it. I would say that a lot of the mods that I have done wern't worth keeping, but they led to better things.

Some people can sit and listen to music, not me. I seem to fill up with nervous energy and start thinking of ways to make the sound more real.

[chops]

Alright, how about this then...

Which would provide the better improvement, CT125's, some kind of squawker mod, or Dean's networks for the Cornwalls?

And if you could, I would like to know what kind of improvements I could expect to gain.

The CT125's I'll already know kind of what to expect from what others have said so far.

[JJkizak]

You won't regret the Dean's crossovers for the Cornwalls. Mine was resurected to where I think it sounded better than it ever has. I noticed that the voices were cleaner and more natural and the bass was cleaned up a bunch. My ears cut off at 12.5 KHZ. so I can't tell you about anything over that.

JJK

[mark1101]

I have done the ALK JR. thing (3 progressively better versions), and the CT-125. I haven't played with any squawker change outs yet.

I can say that the jury is still out on the tweeter swap since I haven't heard quite enough yet. But it is definitely a sweet improvement on first listen. I'm going to use them for a few months then return to the K-77s maybe this fall, something like that. Then, I'll know how the tweeter thing REALLY went.

BUT.....the network upgrade has to rank #1 for me as far as dramatic Mods (not counting buying new equipment like pre/amps). There's really no mod that I can say that I have done that's come even close to such an improvement in clarity, imaging, distortion reduction at higher volumes, and bass increase.

My only other comments would be for the LaScala owners out there. []

The version of ALK Jrs. that I have now extracts more bass from my LaScalas than I have ever heard come from any LaScala before (tall statement, I know). A HUGE improvement. I had 3 different ALK Jr. versions, same circuit with different components and each sounded noticeably different.

Although AL K. and his measurements don't agree [st] [], the version of his ALK Jrs. built with copper foil inductors in the woofer position stand significantly above any of the other versions Dean sent me with regard to bass output in my LaScalas.

Maybe Dean and Al can explain further.

At some point I might look at the Squwaker changeout, but I want to hear some forum members Khorns that have squawker mods first.

[chops]

Hmm... So I should seriously consider upgrading the networks then?

I guess I'll have to shoot Dean a PM to find out the nitty-gritty on his networks. []

Thanks guys for you input. Keep'm coming if you like. []

[Deang]

I prefer the phone - I can say more in 15 minutes than I can spending an hour at the keyboard. 937-559-9708

[chops]

I prefer the phone - I can say more in 15 minutes than I can spending an hour at the keyboard. 937-559-9708

Sounds good to me. When would be a good time to call? It's too late tonight.

[NOSValves]

Probably going to upset a few, but the cabinets are the only thing worth keeping.

This Statement is complete BULLSH!T

[Deang]

Well, true. In your case the cabinets have to go too.

C'mon Dana, that was a bit harsh, ah, I mean over the top.

With good gear, a nice pair of networks, and careful setup -- the sound is far better than most of the stuff out there that's passed off as "realistic" and "accurate".

[meagain]

DeanG - You have PM. I'm pissed at you!

(Edit - not really. [] )

[lett]

Iv'e really enjoyed this thread. I'm still confessing to be a newby and don't even belong on the same fourm, knowledge wise. All i know is it's good to see so much passion about sound and music. The secound part of all i know is my 95 la scala's don't sound like i'd hoped. but im relying on dean and people with his knowledge to help heal my dissappointment. yes i'm a beleiver. iv'e owned 7 different models of klipsch. Iv'e strayed away and always came back. can't find anything at this price point that makes me smile and tell my guest "hush listen to this" .....

Thanks for all the help. mod or no mod "ITS ONLY ROCK & ROLL" and i love it......

[chops]

I can't find anything at this price point that makes me smile and tell my guest "hush listen to this" .....

Thanks for all the help. mod or no mod "ITS ONLY ROCK & ROLL" and i love it......

Well, from looking at my other threads, I'v obviously seen the light and have started making mods of my own. There really are improvements to be had.

BTW, the other good think about Klipsch speakers... You don't have to tell your guests to "hush". Just simply turn the volume up more, then they won't have any choice but to listen, or run away. LOL

[dbailey]

I have done the ALK JR. thing (3 progressively better versions), and the CT-125. I haven't played with any squawker change outs yet.

I can say that the jury is still out on the tweeter swap since I haven't heard quite enough yet. But it is definitely a sweet improvement on first listen. I'm going to use them for a few months then return to the K-77s maybe this fall, something like that. Then, I'll know how the tweeter thing REALLY went.

BUT.....the network upgrade has to rank #1 for me as far as dramatic Mods (not counting buying new equipment like pre/amps). There's really no mod that I can say that I have done that's come even close to such an improvement in clarity, imaging, distortion reduction at higher volumes, and bass increase.

My only other comments would be for the LaScala owners out there. []

The version of ALK Jrs. that I have now extracts more bass from my LaScalas than I have ever heard come from any LaScala before (tall statement, I know). A HUGE improvement. I had 3 different ALK Jr. versions, same circuit with different components and each sounded noticeably different.

Although AL K. and his measurements don't agree [st] [], the version of his ALK Jrs. built with copper foil inductors in the woofer position stand significantly above any of the other versions Dean sent me with regard to bass output in my LaScalas.

Maybe Dean and Al can explain further.

At some point I might look at the Squwaker changeout, but I want to hear some forum members Khorns that have squawker mods first.

I agree with what Mark has said about his mods. I had bought the CT-125 tweeters and expected more from this upgrade. I actually reinstalled the old ones just because I thought they sounded better. I had just changed some interconnects, so I thought maybe that it had something to do with why I preferred the K-77's over the 125's and maybe I just wasn't giving them a fair evaluation. I am keeping them because now that I have the new ALK universals, I'll want to put them back in and give them another listen.

The networks have been a great upgrade for me and I would also be willing to change to new drivers, but only if they sound sweet like the original ones. I don't care what anyone else says about the original drivers. I think they sound great.

As far as the "Klipsch sound" to me, I would say that it is full, dynamic, low distortion. I don't even care that sometimes I hear dirty noise in the line only because I know that the La Scala is fully capable of reproducing even the flaws. So be it!

Overall, with the ALK upgrade, I would say that the sound is better than ever. Even with the stock drivers.

Dave

[oscarsear]

I haven't read all the previous posts here. I don't have the time right now. IMHO we're all here because we like the sound of well reproduced music and we're not wealthy. For the $$$ Klipsch does deliver the best reroduction for the bucks. For a lttle more $$$ the basis of the Klipsch design can be improved to a better level. This might even be a personal level, one that Klipsch could not put into a line manufactured product at keep its cost at all reasonable.

There is no reason to criticize those who have modded their equipment. It was not done arbitrarily nor out of any disrepect for the product line or the venerable man himself. Rather I feel it exemplifies what Mr. Klipsch was about.... striving for perfection. He knew how to deliver the best he could deliver for a modest price point. If he were alive this day and found the market amenable to extravagant and costly design could you imagine what he might contrive?