sunburnwilly Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 NHRA Remove stubborn , impacted earwax , and have fun at the same time . Sorry the post has nothing to do with tone controls . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 This is my very powerful 5.5 watts RMS mono block amp just two gain stages with tone controls you can add a couple alone, If your using solid state better add another 5-8 and also I use no preamp just CD direct I agree source material is my limitation SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audiocvk Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 >Are loudness and tone controls necessary? Depends, some can't stand them.... and some can't stand to be without them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted June 16, 2006 Share Posted June 16, 2006 Your absolutely right! I think the root of it is in the equipment, Most AV Recievers and even most past recievers just don't have the involvement to allow me to really enjoy the music or even video sound prompting me to use their controls. An example is my cheap 34$ DVD player which is just terriable when listened to flat as I listen to 2 channel video sound from it I don't care to spend anymore money than what is neccessary for video satisfaction ( I do own a 42 in. Plasma) so I bought a cheap EQ from Radio Shack for 100$ very well made and recommended for cheap enhancement of cheap DVD players unless the player has EQ built into it. So I think if your gear is not very exoctic like my setup heck by all means use the controls most of the mid-fi gear is kinda lean sounding like my DVD player in contrast to my 5 watter which is all about quality not quanity. Take my friends little Jollita hybrid tube front end solid state output stage 100 watts/channel a 750$ amplifier, a nice amp but! with nowhere near the imformation, Sound stage width which was literally half the width and depth of my 5 watter not to mention the 5 watts having a greater slam factor something that most people have a hard time believeing unless they hear it for themselves. Hope this helps! SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted June 17, 2006 Share Posted June 17, 2006 No tone or loudness controls are present on my current gear. With previous gear that had them I never used them. I am guessing that those who do have them and use them almost always adjust them to increase response rather than reduce it- what does that really tell you in light of the psychological feature of hearing called habituation? Once you habituate (get used to) the sound, you are inclined to turn it up again to get the same change, then again. This leads to bass and treble controls all the way up, EQ sliders in the shape of a big smile on each channel, and the loudness button permanently depressed. And continuing dissatisfaction wondering why the system sounds so lousy. The music is supposed to sound right without these alterations. Claims that loudness boost is needed because of the F-M curve are baseless (bassless - almost a pun). Because you hear relatively less of the frequency extremes of bass and treble with less volume level, that is the natural response curve for hearing those frequencies. To try to boost them to a flat level as you might hear at high volume when listening at a lower volume is a gross misrepresentation of the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbsl Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 "The music is supposed to sound right without these alterations." Pauln if I do not like the way a cd or record sounds I will use tone controls to alter the sound. You like to listen without tone controls. Who is right? WE BOTH ARE!!! Look this whole debate simply is about individual choices on how people like their music to sound. Anyone saying that no one should use tone controls ever are missing the whole point of this hobby IMHO. This could be SET vs PP, tube vs solid state, or in this case tone controls vs no tone controls. I think it is time that discussions we have drop the "vs" becasue no one is wrong if they like how the music sounds no matter what equipment they are using or how it may alter the music. As far as "The music is supposed to sound right without these alterations." Do you really think what you hear from a record or cd is what the artist truely intended? The producer, sound eng, and record company have done so many alterations before we get the music that the artist's material and the way it sounds may not be true to the artist vision. The music is altered soo much durning the recording process. So if I want to do a little bit more alterations so it sounds good to me then I will. It's all a personal prefrence. When you go to a live concert what do you normally see somewhere out in the crowd? A sound eng with his sound board. What is a sound board? A really fancy EQ or tone controls. So if recording studios and artists use tone controls then I fell no problem using them to tweak the music to my taste. Still we are both right in our prefrence for or against tone controls. Many people do not like Klipsch speakers no matter how good the equipment. They are not wrong it is their ears. " And continuing dissatisfaction wondering why the system sounds so lousy." Garbage in garbage out! Another problem is not every CD or record is a excellent recording. I have more bad recorded CDs than good ones. Badly recorded albums(cds or records) played in a system still means bad sound coming out no matter how good the equipment is. The problem is not every CD or record is a excellent recording. Can certain equipment help with bad recording? Yes but so can tone controls. Can tone controls degrade the sound quallity? Yes but so can some tube gear and solid state gear. A quesion for all the tube people which includes myselft. What are you doing when you are tube rolling ? You are doing a form of tone controls. Disagree? I'm sure many of you do! Let me ask you this. When you roll tubes why do you keep one particular type of tube? Probably because you enjoy the way it makes the bass or treble or midrange sound. Sounds like tone controls to me. No you can not drastictly change the tone like you can with tone controls but you are changing the tone to suit your likes and dislikes. Maybe we should start calling tube rolling for what it is Tone Tweaking. That is the result when you tube roll the bass, midrange , and treble are being tweaked The point of tube rolling to change the sound of your system so the bass, midrange, treble is better. I am doing the same thing with tone controls just not having to switch out tubes. If there was only one type of tube in the whole world and everyone had to use that one type of tube would you still own tube gear? Maybe maybe not " Once you habituate (get used to) the sound, you are inclined to turn it up again to get the same change, then again. This leads to bass and treble controls all the way up" Sorry Pauln but to say all people who use tone controls the way you are saying is wrong. Are there people who use tone controls like you say? Yes probably but they probably have a $300 A/V reciever bought from Best Buy or they may have the same int amp I do and turn up the tone controls all the way It does not mean I do. It does not matter if they like the way the music sounds with the tone controls all the way up because it is what they like. To them the music sounds great and that is what matters. Are they wrong? NO they are correct because it is their ears and their likes and dislikes. That is all that matters in this hobby the music sounding great!! This means different things to different people. Remember this is a individual hobby so while some people do not use tone controls and some do everyone is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Cain Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 "The music is supposed to sound right without these alterations." Pauln if I do not like the way a cd or record sounds I will use tone controls to alter the sound. You like to listen without tone controls. Who is right? WE BOTH ARE!!! Look this whole debate simply is about individual choices on how people like their music to sound. Anyone saying that no one should use tone controls ever are missing the whole point of this hobby IMHO. This could be SET vs PP, tube vs solid state, or in this case tone controls vs no tone controls. I think it is time that discussions we have drop the "vs" becasue no one is wrong if they like how the music sounds no matter what equipment they are using or how it may alter the music. As far as "The music is supposed to sound right without these alterations." Do you really think what you hear from a record or cd is what the artist truely intended? The producer, sound eng, and record company have done so many alterations before we get the music that the artist's material and the way it sounds may not be true to the artist vision. The music is altered soo much durning the recording process. So if I want to do a little bit more alterations so it sounds good to me then I will. It's all a personal prefrence. When you go to a live concert what do you normally see somewhere out in the crowd? A sound eng with his sound board. What is a sound board? A really fancy EQ or tone controls. So if recording studios and artists use tone controls then I fell no problem using them to tweak the music to my taste. Still we are both right in our prefrence for or against tone controls. Many people do not like Klipsch speakers no matter how good the equipment. They are not wrong it is their ears. "And continuing dissatisfaction wondering why the system sounds so lousy." Garbage in garbage out! Another problem is not every CD or record is a excellent recording. I have more bad recorded CDs than good ones. Badly recorded albums(cds or records) played in a system still means bad sound coming out no matter how good the equipment is. The problem is not every CD or record is a excellent recording. Can certain equipment help with bad recording? Yes but so can tone controls. Can tone controls degrade the sound quallity? Yes but so can some tube gear and solid state gear. A quesion for all the tube people which includes myselft. What are you doing when you are tube rolling ? You are doing a form of tone controls. Disagree? I'm sure many of you do! Let me ask you this. When you roll tubes why do you keep one particular type of tube? Probably because you enjoy the way it makes the bass or treble or midrange sound. Sounds like tone controls to me. No you can not drastictly change the tone like you can with tone controls but you are changing the tone to suit your likes and dislikes. Maybe we should start calling tube rolling for what it is Tone Tweaking. That is the result when you tube roll the bass, midrange , and treble are being tweaked The point of tube rolling to change the sound of your system so the bass, midrange, treble is better. I am doing the same thing with tone controls just not having to switch out tubes. If there was only one type of tube in the whole world and everyone had to use that one type of tube would you still own tube gear? Maybe maybe not "Once you habituate (get used to) the sound, you are inclined to turn it up again to get the same change, then again. This leads to bass and treble controls all the way up" Sorry Pauln but to say all people who use tone controls the way you are saying is wrong. Are there people who use tone controls like you say? Yes probably but they probably have a $300 A/V reciever bought from Best Buy or they may have the same int amp I do and turn up the tone controls all the way It does not mean I do. It does not matter if they like the way the music sounds with the tone controls all the way up because it is what they like. To them the music sounds great and that is what matters. Are they wrong? NO they are correct because it is their ears and their likes and dislikes. That is all that matters in this hobby the music sounding great!! This means different things to different people. Remember this is a individual hobby so while some people do not use tone controls and some do everyone is right. Makes sense to me.....[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 Necessary,I don't thinkso.A nice option,I think so.I'll take loudness/bass/treble when I can get it.At present my options are bass/treble,I leave the treble flat and bump bass up to +1.I kinda do it out of tradition,I just always liked it bumped up one notch on most gear.If I set it to 0 it still sounds fine but if I like it better at +1 there would be no reason not too.I'm not likely to have an audio inspection by the audiophiles so I just go with what sounds optimum to my ears. I suppose if one has to make frequent adjustments then there may be other issues that need to be addressed.As with all things audio opinions vary greatly,if you trust your ears above all else you can't go wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 aren't tone controls just like changing out room arraingments or speaker crossovers and speakers for that matter...to compensate for acoustics and/or our own hearing??? If you like them, use them...if not, don't...seems pretty easy to me... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 me I swing both ways. Wait a minute that didn't come out quite right. Freudian slip, perhaps ....?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 the Purists tend to deny tone controls and yet seem to be quite active and careful in tube rolling, swapping caps, investing in wires and auditioning cartridges...all result in tone control...in fact any selection one makes in any one part of the signal chain is based on tone...so why would they accept tone controls as valid? The need to follow the Purist party line. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 sunnysal, That is a most interesting observation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 the Purists tend to deny tone controls and yet seem to be quite active and careful in tube rolling, swapping caps, investing in wires and auditioning cartridges...all result in tone control...in fact any selection one makes in any one part of the signal chain is based on tone...so why would they accept tone controls as valid? The need to follow the Purist party line. Tony Super point you have made there Sunysal. Could the Emperor have no clothes? Duke , you crack me up. By the way you're avatar is looking particularly attractive tonight. I've got some Village People and, of course, Babs and Cher. Care to stop by? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Purists tend to deny tone controls and yet seem to be quite active and careful in tube rolling, swapping caps, investing in wires and auditioning cartridges...all result in tone control...in fact any selection one makes in any one part of the signal chain is based on tone...so why would they accept tone controls as valid?Hmm ... some of those differences are in clarity, and I'm doubtful that tone (i.e., altering the response curve) is the only factor in some of those audible changes. Anyway, tone controls never seemed to do exactly or even approximately, the right thing for me, so I was glad to be rid of any implication that I should mess with them. Broad-band parametric equalizers on some preamps, same thing. OTOH, some vintage equipment like Scott integrateds seem to sound better on some kinds of music with the loudness on or the bass jacked up and the treble diddled up or down. More recent preamps haven't needed that, and their tone controls didn't do quite the right job in any case. So, for me, I haven't needed 'em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 no problem with that larry, I would never think to tell anyone what is right for them. that is what makes me bristle at the purist crowd, always trying to tell others that there is something wrong with them for tweaking tone controls to get the sound they like. as if that is any different than tube rolling, etc. as I mentioned earlier. what is good for the goose I always say...best regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 So the question remains, who out there uses their tone controls to turn down the bass, for example? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 well paul if you must know, I have the bass turned down one notch on each side in my bedroom system. the RB-5s get too much bass support from the corners and proximity to the back wall, they sounded bloated so I drop them down a notch each in the bass control on my McIntosh MA6400 integrated. just the opposite of my main system where the k-horns get one notch of boost in the bass. you axed. regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 Tube rolling is different ,it alone does not alter the response, materials and construction are different they influence harmonics not boosting or cutting the response Some electronics are so bad that one has to use tone controls, If your electronics are truly great then one doesn't have to use such controls and often great electronics with out tone controls will still out perform electronics that are using them. SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 I've owned the Paragon12 and 12A. A fine pre with a near-perfectly implemented EQ section, IMO. (Excepting the curious Contour control - nobody's perfect.) I honestly don't miss the 3-band EQ now that I have a dialed-in Blueberry. And to be honest, I didn't read pgs 2 & 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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