SET12 Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Art Dudley on SETS: and my experience has led me to expect a number of strengths from the breed: An almost scary sense of presence on voices and solo instruments. Superb immediacy in terms of musical nuance. Equally superb drama, with the greatest dynamic contrasts available in home playback when mated to the right speakers. At least good to very good performance in terms of getting the notes and the beats right. A sense of flow and momentum in musical lines that is second to none. And an uncannily natural way with textures and colorsthat beguilingly beautiful, gooshy feel that makes it easy to forget you're listening to electricity imitate people playing music. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Can you get the THD chart for the vintage solid-state receivers? What is THD at 1 milliwatt and 1 watt? What is power rating into 8-ohms? 4-ohms? Even 2? Exactly my take on SET's thats why I use Klipsch they bring out the best of SET's Like I have said elsewhere I wouldn't of been caught dead whith them in my past until I heard them with SET's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 SET12, I am not trying to be a wise guy or a pain in the ***, but I am not most people our age, I'm ME..............I am trying to pin down which way to go with a power unit.............I need this type of comparision to gain knowledge so that I will make the right decision, when that time comes.............All I've ever owned is SS......intergrated amps a few, receivers mainly, so the Tube world is uncharted ground for me...........now I found out there's different tubes................SET........VRD's..........Mono Blocks..........So, this is why I have to ask things, because I don't know about tubes...............I'm trying to gain some knowledge....................You asked why play with 100 watts when all you need is a few good ones...................HEADROOM..............because I want to...........after all it is SS.....I would love to hear that 140 watts per Marantz..........Killer I bet..........My mistake for thinking this would be easy.........SOOOOOO Many choices...............I've never heard a SET set, nor a VRD..........have heard intergrated Tube Scott unit......very nice.......and a Mc Intosh 50 watt per,..........very nice.........real nice................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 SET12, I am not trying to be a wise guy or a pain in the ***, but I am not most people our age, I'm ME..............I am trying to pin down which way to go with a power unit.............I need this type of comparision to gain knowledge so that I will make the right decision, when that time comes.............All I've ever owned is SS......intergrated amps a few, receivers mainly, so the Tube world is uncharted ground for me...........now I found out there's different tubes................SET........VRD's..........Mono Blocks..........So, this is why I have to ask things, because I don't know about tubes...............I'm trying to gain some knowledge....................You asked why play with 100 watts when all you need is a few good ones...................HEADROOM..............because I want to...........after all it is SS.....I would love to hear that 140 watts per Marantz..........Killer I bet..........My mistake for thinking this would be easy.........SOOOOOO Many choices...............I've never heard a SET set, nor a VRD..........have heard intergrated Tube Scott unit......very nice.......and a Mc Intosh 50 watt per,..........very nice.........real nice................ oldbuckster, There's a wonderful information tool called a "search engine" (Google, Yahoo) that many use too gather greater insight on tube topologies, equipment reviews, etc. There is also no substitue for getting out to hear the equipment in systems. You can find local forums and listening groups for your geographic area listed in audio magazines and on the internet. It's important that you form opinions and base your buying decisions on what your ears hear, not what you read in this forum. Just seeing your assumption of "140 watts per Marantz.......Killer I bet..." is mind curdling in itself. You will be rewarded by more independent research. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 well, My personal Opinion, in case you wanted it .... Dynamic's... and SET .. just don't happen........ Klipsch, and why it's popular w/ the SET crowd, is 100-104 dB efficiency you don't see a mention of SET on the Lansing Heritage Forum, now Do You ... given som JBL's .... hell, you wouldn't even hear the music at 3 w. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 SET12, I am not trying to be a wise guy or a pain in the ***, but I am not most people our age, I'm ME..............I am trying to pin down which way to go with a power unit.............I need this type of comparision to gain knowledge so that I will make the right decision, when that time comes.............All I've ever owned is SS......intergrated amps a few, receivers mainly, so the Tube world is uncharted ground for me...........now I found out there's different tubes................SET........VRD's..........Mono Blocks..........So, this is why I have to ask things, because I don't know about tubes...............I'm trying to gain some knowledge....................You asked why play with 100 watts when all you need is a few good ones...................HEADROOM..............because I want to...........after all it is SS.....I would love to hear that 140 watts per Marantz..........Killer I bet..........My mistake for thinking this would be easy.........SOOOOOO Many choices...............I've never heard a SET set, nor a VRD..........have heard intergrated Tube Scott unit......very nice.......and a Mc Intosh 50 watt per,..........very nice.........real nice................ oldbuckster, There's a wonderful information tool called a "search engine" (Google, Yahoo) that many use too gather greater insight on tube topologies, equipment reviews, etc. There is also no substitue for getting out to hear the equipment in systems. You can find local forums and listening groups for your geographic area listed in audio magazines and on the internet. It's important that you form opinions and base your buying decisions on what your ears hear, not what you read in this forum. Just seeing your assumption of "140 watts per Marantz.......Killer I bet..." is mind curdling in itself. You will be rewarded by more independent research. Klipsch out. What is your point about the Marantz being killer? Is not Marantz considered a Top of the Line unit? Is not 140 watts from a Marantz clean power?.............I trust people's opinions on this forum..........lot of good information ..........Searches, and Reviews are not for me, I do not really like the technical end of this hobby, I would get lost in the words and terms the pro's use to describe things.............so, because I don't know all the technical stuff, I should have no opinion on a product like Marantz? or, did I misunderstand what "mind curling" meant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 I think oldbuckster has valid points and questions...that's how people learn here on the forum...many times the search function HAS been used but people want a more up to date analysis of the information...new blood gives new answers and different views...I am guessing that oldbuckster and I are not far off in age and are not far off in our movement through the Hi Fidelity world...I recently asked many of the same questions with regards to my situation...I eventually took the leap off the cliff (thanks Daddy Dee) and tried Tubes...I have not felt the need to look back...will oldbuckster feel the same way??? Perhaps, perhaps not...by sharing our anecdotal thoughts on equipment many of us get a "feel" for equipment without having to make the purchase...we get to "test drive" the equipment before buying...I was looking for new McIntosh Tubes...I couldn't find ANY despite several Premier McIntosh Dealers that are REQUIRED to carry EVERYTHING that McIntosh makes...when I found Tube equipment new, I couldn't hear it with Klipsch let alone Heritage...I suspect many have the same difficulties...so, just by listening here and doing my reconnassance I decided to take a Leap of Faith and buy Daddy Dee's EICO...pure bliss...then I found a deal here on VRDs and a BlueBerry...sweeeet!...I would NEVER have even thought of trying it if not for the support and information gleaned from this Forum...I say, ask on oldbuckster...resistance is futile and soon you shall have the glow of valves in your home...or he won't but he will decide what's best for him within his budget and I bet he would appreciate the help...just my buck three eighty. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 well, My personal Opinion, in case you wanted it .... Dynamic's... and SET .. just don't happen........ Klipsch, and why it's popular w/ the SET crowd, is 100-104 dB efficiency you don't see a mention of SET on the Lansing Heritage Forum, now Do You ... given som JBL's .... hell, you wouldn't even hear the music at 3 w. Hardly!!! I was on the site but a minute and I found! A guy triamping with you know what! 2A3's for Bass!!! Cary 805 Mids!!! 2A3's Tweeters! Under Describe your HiFi system! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Well, I guess there's at least one in every crowd. Hey, he's running more than 3 watts too! Parrot over at my house with some of his music, my Klipschorns -- and a pair of Wright 3.5's had to be one of the greatest laughs I ever had. The only word we could conjure up between us to describe the sound was "anemic". Please do not buy 3 watt amps if you listen to Rock or Symphony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 the comparisons between 2A3 amps seem on par . . http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/opera_cyber_10_signature.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Hey I can buy that! That the Wrights sounded anemic! That doesn't surprise me! And there are many more as well! There are all kinds of anemic amps out there! Including SS as well![] Like I have said its all in the design and know different for any other amp. And I do play rock and symphony! SET12 Coda nice review piece again I'm not surprised by it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted August 15, 2006 Share Posted August 15, 2006 Dean, We have found that symphonic music is sounding great on our SETs. As I mentioned earlier, Berlioz, as well as Sibelius, Schubert, and more. Not just something like the Bach Cello Suites. I would agree that what we have might not work too well for screaming, high power rock, but ... we don't listen to that here (very often anyway [] ) You know we don't listen to loud music. That's why we went for the 1st order crossovers. If I was using SS it wouldn't be high power either. I know that when I visited John Albright's house to hear his LS, his Parasound barely broke out of Class A. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 I think it just depends on the source recording. I listen to CD's, and it's hit or miss with my homebrew 2A3 amp, rock, metal or jazz. It either sounds good or doesn't. And the triode amp just makes bad sounding recordings sound worse. I'd go as far to say as with any amp........ With just a 100k stereo stepped attenuator from the source, with the 2A3 amp and my Cornwalls in a smaller room, It's the best sound I got out of all the other crap around here.(With a good recorded CD, and within the amp's limits of course.) My little Maggotbox SE 6BQ5 is second as far as best tone on the Cornwalls. But it even has more limitations. While the 2A3 amp can do some well recorded metal rather well actually, most of it doesn't fly really. Unless one likes it at low levels...... Hopefully this Eico ST-70 will pull off death metal.......Then I'll have a wimpy SET amp for girl music, and a moderate power push-pull for grindcore. Of course, rolling amplifiers like people roll tubes is not a normal practice........[*-)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 well, My personal Opinion, in case you wanted it .... Dynamic's... and SET .. just don't happen........ Klipsch, and why it's popular w/ the SET crowd, is 100-104 dB efficiency you don't see a mention of SET on the Lansing Heritage Forum, now Do You ... given som JBL's .... hell, you wouldn't even hear the music at 3 w. BULLSHIT!! Really displays how little you know about SET AND dynamics. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldbuckster Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Is that true, that the Klipsch forum is the leading SET forum, other forums don't mention it because there is not enough power to drive their speakers? If that is true, then it is really more about the speaker than the SET power source...........correct? Why do people fail to mention things like that..............it changes the information................Funny part is, 12 pages no comparision, but I have learned a few things already that may change my whole outlook on this subject........................Carry on gentlemen.......What say you all?.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 For a given power rating, we shouldn't really leave out the PP topology. Oldbuckster can find some really great amps there too. There are LOTS of those around, from good to bad, just like any other type of amplifier. Why do people fail to mention things like that..............it changes the information....... What has been mentioned is the synergy (what a cheesy buzzword) between the components. Doesn't matter if it's a Realistic from Radio Shack or what, every compnent plays a part and can kill or make a system. Klipsch speakers are very efficient, so there is more of a chance for lower powered amps to work well with them. My not too efficient JBLs (89db) are even claimed to be useful as monitors with the use of a 10 watt amp. That is JBL's claim. I have used them for monitoring with a small amp, but not that small. Oldbuckster, I'll probably get this wrong, but the general topologies for tubes would be: Single ended triode (SET) low power, one tube for the final output gain stage. As SET12 says, you can also use transmitting tubes here and get lots more power. Other tubes can also be used in a SET setup, such as Mikes EL84 amp (6BQ5) SET in a push-pull configuration. Same qualities as single tube but more power Push-Pull (PP) output tubes, using pentodes, etc. From a little to lots more power. The little EL84 tube in this config will give around 14 watts per channel. A very sweet amp (lots of configurations of this). Larger PP designs to well over a 100 wpc. Output transformers play a large part in how these amps work and sound. There's lots mor, but the basic idea is here (I hope). We all choose our poison. Solid state amps most often use a PP arrangement in the output transistors, but other options are also available. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 Bruce -- I would like to think something like the Moondogs are in a different class then the Wrights, I hope so. What I found so disappointing about the Wrights was that at the volume levels I expected them to excel at, there was not a single thing in the sound that corresponded to the way 2A3 is usually described, i.e. "see through quality", "a sense of immediacy", etc. As far as 3 watts in general goes, the fact that there are only three watts should tell someone that it's not the topology to choose if one enjoys live level listening, or even moderate levels where the music is complex and dynamic. Jazzman -- someone who has three watts telling someone that listens with high powered solid state and serious horns that they don't understand "SET AND dynamics" is one of the funnier things I've read around here lately. I think you would have to agree that these things are relative -- I don't think a pair of Moondogs would sound very dynamic at 95dB and up compared to a Crown Macrotech. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted August 16, 2006 Author Share Posted August 16, 2006 The Wright 3.5's match perfectly to the Wright preamps - what did you use - passive? Many reviewers have mentioned the inadequacy of some very highend preamps and the power, purity, and beauty of the Wright preamps with the 3.5s... Were you listening to CDs? Maybe they don't have 'see through quality' and 'sense of immediacy' except at brain jelling volume? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 For a given power rating, we shouldn't really leave out the PP topology. Oldbuckster can find some really great amps there too. There are LOTS of those around, from good to bad, just like any other type of amplifier. Why do people fail to mention things like that..............it changes the information....... What has been mentioned is the synergy (what a cheesy buzzword) between the components. Doesn't matter if it's a Realistic from Radio Shack or what, every compnent plays a part and can kill or make a system. Klipsch speakers are very efficient, so there is more of a chance for lower powered amps to work well with them. My not too efficient JBLs (89db) are even claimed to be useful as monitors with the use of a 10 watt amp. That is JBL's claim. I have used them for monitoring with a small amp, but not that small. Oldbuckster, I'll probably get this wrong, but the general topologies for tubes would be: Single ended triode (SET) low power, one tube for the final output gain stage. As SET12 says, you can also use transmitting tubes here and get lots more power. Other tubes can also be used in a SET setup, such as Mikes EL84 amp (6BQ5) SET in a push-pull configuration. Same qualities as single tube but more power Push-Pull (PP) output tubes, using pentodes, etc. From a little to lots more power. The little EL84 tube in this config will give around 14 watts per channel. A very sweet amp (lots of configurations of this). Larger PP designs to well over a 100 wpc. Output transformers play a large part in how these amps work and sound. There's lots mor, but the basic idea is here (I hope). We all choose our poison. Solid state amps most often use a PP arrangement in the output transistors, but other options are also available. Bruce Well said Bruce! Not all single-ended 2A3's are limited to 3 watts the KR2A3 can make 5 watts Cary makes a nice one which I have heard a few times it is fairly dynamic and very rich in harmonics yes it may not be able to scale great db heights but thats not what its goal is at all! A great 300B can do wonders harmonicly but its crude next to a 2A3, The 2A3 is crude next to a 45, The KR2A3 is close to a 45 though. And a 45 is crude next to the Western Electric 205D which can deliever just a watt! A klipsch brings out the rich harmonics of SET amps using these tubes! For some people thats their main interest I know its one of mine. With 10 watts I have no issues playing in excess 95-100db if I want! I am often in the 90-95 range I have to go in excess of 105 to hear it clip playing CD direct I'm at 10-12 o'clock when in the 90-95 range I have to go to 2 o'clock to get to clipping. My room is 14 x 18 If your listening in excess of 100db routinely you can expect your hearing to go south and it will! I have seen peoples hearing records who have worked in manufacturing with these levels of sound many with 50% losses or more I am fortunate to have less than 10% loss working in the same enviorment because I wore my hearing protection correctly. SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 "If your listening in excess of 100db routinely you can expect your hearing to go south and it will! I have seen peoples hearing records who have worked in manufacturing with these levels of sound many with 50% losses or more I am fortunate to have less than 10% loss working in the same enviorment because I wore my hearing protection correctly." Manufacturing noise is very different and way more dangerous then music at the same levels. That being said the louder you listen to music of course the more damage to your hearing you can expect. Also the more distorted your music becomes when listening at higher levels the more damaging. I believe this is much of the reason lower output SET owners often say they can drive themselves out of the room with 3 watt amps. The actual uncomfortable DB level is much lower with an amp that is producing 10, 15 or even 20% distortion no mater what type it might be. I often laugh when the word Harmonic is used without the word distortion [] 90dB with 10% distortion is as hard or harder on your hearing as 100db clean, smooth and balanced. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted August 16, 2006 Share Posted August 16, 2006 " 90dB with 10% distortion is as hard or harder on your hearing as 100db clean, smooth and balanced. Craig That sounds like bunk to me. While I agree that 90db with 10% distortion is far more ANNOYING and likely to have you RUNNING for the volume control or maybe even have you running out of the room, there is no way it will cause more physical DAMAGE than 100 db with no distortion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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