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mikebse2a3

Klipschorn Jubilee (Babies First Sounds)

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Tell us what you think of the low end? The "weight" and "solidity"? Overall depth? etc.

Impact, sense of dynamism? How do they compare?

I have a couple of very specific things that I'm interested in, since my horn is folded like a Jubilee but has the splay angles of a Khorn.

I'm looking for the differences you perceive in having 2x12" drivers vs. a single 15". I am familiar with the sound of a K33E. I agree that it has a certain sense of transparency that is pretty unique, etc.

Dana

I suppose it is still early to be describing some of this since alot of these qualities need the full frequency spectrum to fully develop.

I will say on the Test Tones even the 25Hz Band was audible but reduced in SPL compared to 35Hz and up but it was still very clean.

I do feel that the transient ability within the limitation of not having the High Frequency Horn working was excellent and if I had to guess this is why the sound was so effortless and unstrained at the low frequencies as well as the fact that the AES paper does also show for the most part that the Jubilee does exhibit less distortion than the standard Khorn. I want to describe it as if the speaker returns to silence between the transients better. The sound seemed to also be better focused than what I had with Khorns in this room.

I'll try to give better descriptions once the system is fully operational and balanced properly.

At this time I will sum it up by saying: Very Extended, Clean and Focused!!! which is a great foundation for the High Frequency Horn to build on.

mike tn[:)]

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You guys are way over my head. Sort of like a wine taster (though I don't drink, I'd be the beer drinking type...probably 3.2 beer at that, trying to have a high brow conversation with sophisticates!!)

Here's my take..

I hooked up one of Al K's ES600 networks that happens to be made into a 2 way so I guess I'm the first to hear the whole thing!!

Hooked it up (cobbed something together is more accurate), turned things on, carefully turned volume up and what did the wife say???

"Where's the BASS???"

I admit I was wondering same thing then I remembered Mike & Al both said I might need to EQ the sound some. I patched the eq in and starting at 1000 hz, I started cutting down. I cut in a straight line, EVERYTHING by about 9db down.

Wife was yacking on phone with her sister (probably conniving on ideas where she should bury me) so I couldn't crank anything up.

Sounded very nice I must say, though still a bit distant on the bass front. I was sitting with the left speaker turned on (the torture speaker behind the chair). The chair blocked the left side of the bass bin.

What I found interesting was as I was paying attention to a drum line, the drums (snares I guess, not the bass drum) CLEARLY seemed to be eminating from the top right corner of the bass bin. It was as though the bass drum was eminating lower and the higher sounding drums were coming out above. I'm serious, it really seemed as though the drum was coming from the top right corner (again, the left corner was blocked by chair)

The volume wasn't that high. I'll be able to do more vollume tomorrow in between a couple parties we're going to.

As you can tell, Mike is clearly the technical one [:D]

I DO think that top horn is going to be one HECK of a horn. As I sat there listening to it, I just started to laugh a bit at how absurd it is having this monstrosity in front of me. Of course, I was loving every minute of it.

As an aside, you might get a kick out of this... Knowing the wife is still not really liking what is sitting in her living room, I don't want to rub it in her face so fast. As such, I've not even looked at them up until tonight. Was getting later on and I asked her if she'd be offended if I went to hook one of them up. her answer made me laugh, though I kept it to myself.

her response was, "no, I would not be offended if you hooked one of them up... I'm offended by their existence in my living room"

[:$]

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Well paint some flowers on those GIANT horns to match the room, never mind that won't help.[W]

Well in most states it's a 50/50 thing with a husband and wife.

Even counting the chair you sit in you still never used 50% of that room, never mind that won't work either.[st][li]

Well I guess you are on your own, but you knew that already.

Well what if you tell her all the cool wives have these, no that won't work either.

Well tell her , never mind it may be better to let her get over it without the extra bs.

You have more patience than me when crossovers came they would have been installed and fired up asap.

She will be OK, in time, maby, good luck.[8-)][:)]

Just kidding, I'm sure she is a nice lady, and you have to admit that is a Big speaker even for a 50' x 50' room.

You are a brave man to try and slip those in the room![:D]

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Coytee, I think you need to invite all of your wife's friends over for a tea party or whatever it is that half of the species likes to do for fun. You then need to pay them all off to comment on how much nicer the room looks with big black speakers in the corners [;)]

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Not to offend, I read my wife your post and she said if all else fails tell her to " reach up around her neck and get a grip", .......just a joke, don't try that, please.

It don't work belive me.

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Coytee, I think you need to invite all of your wife's friends over for a tea party or whatever it is that half of the species likes to do for fun. [;)]

I think sacraficial burnings are pretty high on the list when women get together. Usually the sacraficial lambs are their husbands. I fear in my case she'll have three items to bring up, myself and two big black....

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great post dtel, and excellent use of smilies.

I wanted to ask about the chair and placement. Perhaps other more knowledgeable members could answer this. The sound from the bass horn does not shoot out of there as a straight current of waves, but as an ever-expanding horn, right? Isn't that pretty chair considerably in the way? Especially because of it's dense but sound absorbing construction, I'd think that it would seriously adversly affect the sound emanating from that bass bin.

Thoughts?

Btw the Jubes are beautiful and we do hang on your every comment. No pressure or anything.

M

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Richard, just so that you are aware you can use that DBX BX-1 to run both speakers top and bottom. Switch it into 4-channel mode use two channels for the HF and the other two for the LF. I always thought the BX-1 sounded best and had the lowest noise floor when running in 4-channel mode. It is rated at 100W x 4 but that is extremely conservative, I have no doubt that it has the balls to run those babies into the 125db range. Since it is capable of any speaker load on the planet it should have no trouble running them.

When I compared the BX-1 to the MC-30's I had it was running in 4-channel mode the differences were negligible to my ears.

Since you have a variety of amps I just wanted to point out that you don't necessarily need to use two amplifiers to run them.

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What an excellent point Charles! Out of the various combo's I could use, it never crossed my mind that I could do that.

I suppose I still have an issue with the XLR outputs of the EV crossover, but I might toy around with making a single cable with XLR on one side and RCA on the other.

Heck, if I were to use the BX1 for the whole shebang, would I have to sell my 2102 and 30's???

(I know my wife would love that... hmmm....... so would Mr. Budget)

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Yes i agree that chair is interfearing with bass wave propagation. Perhaps rearranging of all the furnature in the room is needed. Since that may not be possable. The Jubls will need a dedicated room. They can not breath in that room. So going down into the dungen bassment is needed. Or a costly room addition?????? Too bad you burned those shipping box,s ...Your fate is sealed.

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Too bad you burned those shipping box,s ...Your fate is sealed.

Precisely [:D]

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"I hooked up one of Al K's ES600 networks that happens to be made into a 2 way so I guess I'm the first to hear the whole thing!!

Hooked it up (cobbed something together is more accurate), turned things on, carefully turned volume up and what did the wife say???

"Where's the BASS???"

I admit I was wondering same thing then I remembered Mike & Al both said I might need to EQ the sound some. I patched the eq in and starting at 1000 hz, I started cutting down. I cut in a straight line, EVERYTHING by about 9db down. "

Use the adjustable autoformer taps on the ES600 to dial back the top end driver in place of what you are doing with the EQ. You need to account for the differences in sensitivity between the top driver and the bass horn. That is what the autoformer in the ES600 is for.

After you do that the EQ you will need will be to bring the top end of the response up. If I'm not mistaken the big horn is a constant dispersion horn so as a guess you are going to need to boost the top end at around 6dB and octave starting around 4kHz or so.

Shawn

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Gil, the concept-level explanation on the multiple flare rates is that each flare section of a different rate is an acoustic transformer, and transfers the acoustic resistance to the mouth of the next section. Length of the respective section is only important in that it partially determines the acoustic resistance in combination with the particular flare rate, it is the nature of a horn to change a high velocity, small area to a low velocity, large® area along with the acoustical resistance (high to low). The acoustic resistance desired at the THROAT of the TERMINAL SECTION is the determiner. Multiple flare rates typically have a wider bandpass capability than a single consistant flare rate throughout the horn. This is also why the Khorn is 4 octaves vs. the usual 3 octaves, it uses 50, 32 and 40Hz flares, respectively.

In the case of a fast expansion (throat section) the driver "sees" a lower acoustic resistance at the throat which allows for rather small throat cavity openings and throat channels to be employed. The rapid flare rate allows for a wider bandpass and higher efficiency (SPL) which includes the frequencies below the Fc of the section; the remaining horn sections of lower flare rates tend to filter the upper portion but present the least resistance to frequencies below that of the throat sections LF cutoff (Fc). So that "levels" out the response, and explains how you can get LF response out of a horn with a throat flare rate of 97Hz, as is the case with the Jubilee.

The acoustic resistance at the throat of the intermediate section is lower due to its flare rate, and the fact that the secondary throat occurs at some distance from the initial throat, and there is the capacitance of air in the channel times distance from the driver/throat. The intermediate connecting section is a lower flare rate than the terminal section (required to "transmit" the acoustic resistance to the terminal section). If the intermediate section was a non-expanding column (or pipe) the acoustic impedance would be transfered 1:1 (ignoring any losses due to viscosity) to the end of the column.

The terminal sections are typically the longest in the horn sequence comparitively, and the flare rate fo the teminal section determines the overall Fc of the horn.

In the case of the LA SCALA, the throat section is the lowest Fc (60 Hz) and the terminal section is the highest (125Hz). This was done in order to use the large throat cross-section (78 sq. in.) for the use of the K33E.

I'm not going to post the formulas for calculating all of this, frankly because I don't understand them - they use an "acoustic Ohm", for instance. They can be found in Harry Olson's "Acoustic Engineering". When figuring the use of multiple flares, the horn is worked backwards from the terminal throat back to the initial throat, so you start with the terminal throat resistance you want and work backwards, throat to throat.

DM

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That is what the autoformer in the ES600 is for. After you do that the EQ you will need will be to bring the top end of the response up. If I'm not mistaken the big horn is a constant dispersion horn so as a guess you are going to need to boost the top end at around 6dB and octave starting around 4kHz or so. Shawn

??

Which wires would I use?

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Guys,

I did a computer analysis on the network posted on the other thread. It difinitly as an equalizer in the high output port. It looks like it's for a CD horn. My ES600 has no such thing. You may be able to get a very crude eq jury rigged into it with a resistor and a cap, but that would take some time.

AL K.

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been waiting for this thread... so i'm just marking it with a post till i actually read it... [;)]

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Mike, congrats on your new speakers!! They look great in that room!! Can't wait for my invite to come over to hear them!! I'm glad we met on this forum & want to thank you for all the time,work on my equipment & knowledge you given & shared with me!! Happy I, only live about 1/2 hour away. Jim

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Mike, congrats on your new speakers!! They look great in that room!! Can't wait for my invite to come over to hear them!! I'm glad we met on this forum & want to thank you for all the time,work on my equipment & knowledge you given & shared with me!! Happy I, only live about 1/2 hour away. Jim

THANKS JIM!!!!

Hopefully the crossover will be here soon and then a little tweeking and I promise you will be one of the very first to hear them.

mike tn[:)]

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Here is one picture Clarence. A few more are on about page 11 and 12 of the "Chronicles Thread" in Technical.

mike tn[:)]

post-14473-13819307502936_thumb.jpg

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