K HORN IMAGING

[toomanyspeakers]

I love my Khorns. The real life you are there sound is unbeatable. The only thing that could be there imaging quality. Does anyone have simular problems? If so whats the answer short of tearing down walls and rebuilding my listening room.

[Travis In Austin]

My listening room is roughly 17 by 25 and I have them on the long wall. They both are perfectly sealed into corners, in other word, no gaps. They image better then any other speakers I have ever owned. I have heard that if they get beyond 25' apart it is necessary to run a center channel, but there are others on here that can speak to that much better then I.

What is the size/layout of your listening room? Is it possible for you to post a photo or two of how you have things situated? If you can provide that information I can almost guarantee that you will get some great feedback. Probably 15 different opinions from 10 different people.

Travis

[Guest " "]

Are your crosovers AA, or AK-3 or AK-4?

The level of imaging detail changes signifcantly as you move from gentle slope to exteme slope xovers.

The fourm could probally come up with a pretty long list of things that could be done to improve imaging, no one single item is a silver bullet.

[Kudret]

Dan,

You are not alone. I had my Khorns in my basement 17' apart in the corners and I had horrible imaging. I suspect this was due to the support beam going across the room in the ceiling. I moved them out of the corners and they are 12' apart now toed in towards the sitting position which is also 12' away from the speakers. Imaging improved a lot but bass does not go as low now. I will keep them this way and build false half corners.

Kudret

[mark1101]

Is there any potential for any of the drivers to be out of phase? That would cause your issue. Is everything stock?

Another consideration is a wide speaker placement obscurring the image that could be enhanced by a mono center channel to fill in "the hole". A classic problem due to room dimensions. Khorns were originally designed as a mono speaker.

[Kudret]

For out-of-phase tests see Re: Out of phase tests on Khorns.

Kudret

[3dzapper]

I've had my Khorns going on thirty years next year and throughout that time I have found that the red and black colored outputs on the back of an amplifier mean squat. Hooking up amplifier A red/red and black/black can result in two distinct speakers being percieved with a weak, variable sound stage while connecting amplifier B likewise will result in the Khorns just disappearing into thin air with a soundstage extending beyond the boundries of the room, I hook up, listen swap and listen again noting the combo which presents,to me, the most pleasurable listening experience.

Sometimes reversing the red and black leads at the back of one amp channel will produce the latter wonderment. If so, that is the new reference for that amplifier. Sometimes, the amp in question is incabable of producing a good soundstage period.

The perfect sweet spot is in fact small. With six horn drivers aimed directly at the spot, the effect is more like a spotlight than a difuse floodlight. PWK used the left/right/center fill channel to widen the sweet spot to any listening position. My .

Rick

[tigerwoodKhorns]

My old K Horns imaged very well. After adding false corners they were extremely godo because I could set them up like normal speakers. My Belles (that I just sold) also imaged very well. I hear peopel say that horns can't image but that was never my experience. My mother in law, who definately is not into audio (QVC and Walmart is her choice) commented on my K Horns when she heard them "boy, you can really hear the instruments."

[steve]

Dan

I think my KHorns image just fine..but with a center channel, everything is "filled in" a little better. Of course, I just fixed my "too loud too fast" volume problem (another thread) so I hear things a lot better now. My room is 21 x 15, with a sloped ceiling, and that may throw things off a little..but I've tweaked the room with bass traps, and tapestries, and I'm really pleased with the sound. Oh yeah..I think the ALK crossovers may have something to do with it.

And, like I've stated many times before, as soon as I get too complacent with my system, I go listen to someone elses non Klipsch system..and I run home as fast as I can!!

Steve

[Seadog]

I have found that acoustical treatments strategically placed (trial and error method) can significantly improve imaging.

[soundbound]

Mine sounds like speakers in corners.

[PrestonTom]

Dan,

You have received many different sorts of answers. I will give my perspective.

When you say imaging I will assume that you mean the accuracy to the instruments & vocals being distributed in the left-right dimension. Along with their position, the locations of each should be fairly pinpoint and not move around. In particular the vocal and percussion (typically) should convincngly sound right in the middle.

If this is what we are talking about, then the biggest factors are that 1) the stereophonic recording is decently recorded, 2) the speakers are wired correctly re:phase, 3) your listening chair is in the middle and the room is not highly asymmetric. These are the main factors. If the speakers are widely separated, then an additive center channel can certainly help. If there are major room issues, this can affect the imaging (and host of other things). Certainly major peaks and dips in frequency (and differing between the two cabinets) will mess things up, especially in the "diffusness" and stability of the imaging. Excessive reverberation ( which can differ across the spectrum) will also disrupt the imaging.

In regards to imaging (as defined above), 1) swapping amps will make little difference, 2) swapping crossovers will make little difference (unless something is very wrong). This is a relative statement.

Sometimes the issue is not that the imaging is bad, but rather that the "sweetspot" is small and unforgiving. Speaker set up and room interactions will be the dominant culprits. Also some cabinet designs are simply more prone to this problem. Incidentally, with widely spaced Klipschorns, an additive center can help greatly with this problem.

Perhas your problem is not simply "imaging" but the more elusive aspect that is sometimes called "soundstage" (although this term is frequently overused and has become sort of a trashcan term for a numberof things IMO). A dominant aspect of the soundstage seems to be the percieved depth (and is affected by a number of things). Soundstage will be affected by all of the above. It will be strongly affected by room issues (via, the degree of reverberation and also various bumps in the amplitude spectrum). It is also a result of the speaker/crossover design since the drivers will have different dispersion characteristics. The soundstage could also be impacted, although typically to a smaller degree, by things like amps and crossovers (this second effect due in part to differences in dispersion between the various drivers).

This was meant to be helpful. I get concerned when folks try to chase down imaging problems with the least effective tools and diagnostics.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[jackpod]

Having my Khorns now for a month, having them 30' apart and with my chair sitting back about 25' I am not quite in the sweet spot. This weekends plans reluctantly, is to put one of my Belles in the middle. I say reluctantly because I know what the effect is going to be, and well what do I do with my other Belle? It seems very hard to find a single Belle and geez do I really want to help solve someone else's need for a single Belle by splitting a matched consecutive serial numbered pair? I do have a pair of Heresy's I might try even tho it has been mentioned I should at least have a Cornwall but preferably a La Scala or Belle. But I guess if the Belle works out in the center and the Heresy's work out for rear surrounds. I could either put the extra Belle in the back room or find a new home for it

We will see how it works out

Jack

[WMcD]

You should keep an eye on the Architechitural area of this forum.

Forum member mas is going to put us on a forced march through the subject of room treatment and time domain testing.

It is generally thought that imaging problems arise from early reflections from the room walls. This is probably why speakers image better, in general, when they are pulled away from walls.

Let me point out that mas is going to keep us on the straight and narrow and insist on time domain testing and careful analysis.

Gil

[toomanyspeakers]

The speakers in question are pretty new (built last November). The speakers are about 25' apart and I sit about 12' from the front wall pretty much right between them. I do also find that the bass has to be turned down due to a peak in about the 100hz area.

My amp is a McIntosh MHT 200 with good quality Audioquest cables.I appreciate everyones input and ideas.

[consistent]

Hi,

Given that the speakers are properly sealed in appropriate corners the best thing you can do is make sure your room is adequately treated. Getting the 'room right' is the difference between night and day.

Cheers