Klipschorns NOT for sale

[Coytee]

Yawn. You were running a poopy horn, a driver that takes a crap at 5kHz, and a dinky tweeter. I run a Tractrix wood horn with a driver that goes out to 9kHz and a tweeter that doesn't sound like it's choking on a chicken bone when I dump some power into the system. Instead of me coming down there, why don't you come up here. Bring JC --he can insert a catheter so you don't piss all over my floor.

Post generated by Maron Horanzak autopost software. All rights reserved.

If it helps... I DID have a pair of JBL-2404's sitting on top so the only enima was the K401 I suppose? []

In fact, I still got them in a box, not sure if I'm going to keep them or sell them. Got a pair of brand spanking new replacement diaphragm's too (8-ohm) that I spent almost $200 on. []

[Mike Lindsey]

Yawn. You were running a poopy horn, a driver that takes a crap at 5kHz, and a dinky tweeter. I run a Tractrix wood horn with a driver that goes out to 9kHz and a tweeter that doesn't sound like it's choking on a chicken bone when I dump some power into the system. Instead of me coming down there, why don't you come up here. Bring JC --he can insert a catheter so you don't piss all over my floor.

Post generated by Maron Horanzak autopost software. All rights reserved.

LMAO! Now that's a funny post! Poor Maron! [] LOL

Dean - I would love to hear your Khorns! I bet they are some of the finest sounding Khorns on the planet! If I were only rich instead of good looking!

ob - You have to start reading between the lines my brother. Now that's twice I've had to lecture you on this. One more time and you'll have to sit in a corner for 2 hours without any Forum privileges. []

Mike

[oldbuckster]

Mike that's why I asked, I thought I'd missed something. Two hours? kinda harsh..EH? Forgive Me.........................

[jwc]

Since you all have brought up ASHLY products, I would like to hear some experience with this stuff. They "advertise" analog with their products. I have been messin with the idea of getting an EQ and looked at the:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=245-207

Looks like it has several connection options. Not a digital EQ. Anyone had experience with this unit?

Dean, After listening to your Khorns a few years now and own an EQ, did you find yourself tampering with the low end of the bass horn to achieve a "flatter" curve or did you leave the EQ at 0db. Or did you just bypass?

[Tony Reed]

"i have some proto horns (mod'd tractrix of course!) i made that are in between the 402 and 510 that, if i can find them..."

I think I'm going to send Tony Reed over to Valerie's and have him ****** the one off of PK's Jubilee and replace it with a K-J-5, I don't think she'll notice. I'll then have Crites reverse engineer it and see if he'll get a mold made.

Seriously, can you tell us the story of that horn?

Believe me, I've thought about doing that. How do you reverse engineer a horn?

Tony

[ben.]

Since you all have brought up ASHLY products, I would like to hear some experience with this stuff. They "advertise" analog with their products. I have been messin with the idea of getting an EQ and looked at the:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=245-207

Looks like it has several connection options. Not a digital EQ. Anyone had experience with this unit?

Dean, After listening to your Khorns a few years now and own an EQ, did you find yourself tampering with the low end of the bass horn to achieve a "flatter" curve or did you leave the EQ at 0db. Or did you just bypass?

jw, I can tell you that is a great sounding EQ. They were in production racks at my former job, and NO ONE ever complained about them. Very clean sound and predictable results. By that I mean that the bands don't interact with each other in crazy ways like on the $300 ones out there.

I'm not sure if the level is switchable to -10. Make sure that it is or make some provision to do so.

[DrWho]

I'm not sure I would recommend a graphic EQ in a home setting...it's just not the right tool for the kinds of compensation that you would want to be doing. I would recommend something more along the lines of a parametric EQ - maybe 4 or 5 bands per channel.

I've used a lot of the older Ashly crossovers and equalizers and they've always been durable pieces of gear with low noise floor and intuitive operation. They do what they're supposed to and nothing else...the way it should be. I'd compare them favorably to crown...reliable and cost-effective, but not always the absolute best option.

Keep in mind that with any Graphic EQ, any attenutation on a single band is going to introduce some amount of ripple throughout the entire bandwidth of the device. And often, the Q of the attenuation changes with the magnitude of attenuation as well. The better devices implement a few tricks to minimize this behavior and will have all sorts of names they advertise it by (ie "Constant Q") - I suppose it's not as big of a deal anymore with the newer stuff, but even some of the very expensive older equipment would have these problems. One of the advantages to going digital is that you can completely avoid all of these issues - instead of at best minimizing them.

Some other brands you might consider would be dbx, Rane, PreSonus, Alesis...

Avoid brands like Rolls, Peavey, Samson, Behringer....

[mark1101]

I have a DBX 2231 on my main system, and a DBX 1231 on my HT.

I like them both, but I have never tried a digital unit. I don't like either one so much that I wouldn't dump them for something that worked better.

JC, I use the 2231 to increase the bottom end on the khorn system, with almost everything else flat.

Hey Doc, what's a good digital EQ and some of the finer points of using digital or analog?

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Dean,

I am on the fence on a project.

If you sell your K Horns, contact me. I can hook you up with a pair of JBL Baby cheek tweeters, JBL 2470 drivers and a Yamaha Digital Crossover ($3,000 at Sweetwater):

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/D2040/

I'll make you a good deal on all of this stuff. I also have amps too if you are interested.

Chris

[DrWho]

The EV Dx38 that Roy likes to use for active crossovers also has a

great EQ section. I believe there are 5 banks on the master section and

then an additional five for each output. I think you would be

hardpressed to find a unit that only does digital EQ - simply because

it's fairly trivial to implement a lot more processing capability - and

the majority of the people using these products usually will need

crossovers, compression, and limiters.

I forgot to mention that I would try to avoid the Shure DSP

products...As much as I like the company (and the people working

there), they simply don't compare in the side by side comparisons. I've

worked intimately on 3 systems using their system controllers and would

never considering purchasing one myself. Their DSP department is rather

new though so maybe in a few years they'll have the kinks worked out.

Should I even be mentioning this when I'm applying for an internship

there? []

The best advice I can give for digital is to keep your input and output

levels at 100% (but not clipping of course). This will give you the

highest resolution through the DACs, which is going to be the

bottleneck of your system. And then I would recommend the KISS approach

and treat the digital just like you would the analog domain. There's no

reason to get gung-ho trying to achieve a perfectly flat frequency

response. In fact, this usually doesn't sound good because there are

issues in the time-domain that get exagerated as a result (and this

won't show up in "steady state" measurements like an RTA). Measuring ,

however, is a great tool and once you have verified that things are

correct, take your hands off. It is very easy to get "tweaky" in this

hobby and you're going to trick yourself into hearing improvements,

which a few weeks later are often going to sound wierd - and then you

end up tweaking more until you decide the device is ruining the sound.

I guess basically, treat it just like you would analog - everything

pretty much applies the same to both domains (afterall, digital

processing is technically an "analog" process...but that's not a

popular topic). []

[Duke Spinner]

BTW, FWIW, IMO etc... the best bang for the buck in active networks are the Ashly. Really well made and sound very good. Screw the Behringers. They've no business in the signal chain for critical listening.

ASHLY... is Fantastic quality American made stuff ..

'cept for ..

the "new" chinese made line

[Deang]

I would go digital so I could play with time delay. I've looked at just about everything out there, and all the decent units are fairly expensive. Pretty much don't have a choice but to start with the Behringer. I would eventually upgrade -- imagine that. At any rate, I don't have to worry about right now. If and when the time comes, the guys at Parts Express might even be willing to pull a Behringer and Ashly XR-1001 for me play around with for a week or two -- they done that kind of thing for me before.

Chris, you should go forward with that project -- it sure sounds pretty good to me. You have all the stuff -- just do it.

Tony, if I go to the front door and distract her, can you and Dee sneak in through the back?

Dean, After listening to your Khorns a few years now and own an EQ, did you find yourself tampering with the low end of the bass horn to achieve a "flatter" curve or did you leave the EQ at 0db. Or did you just bypass.

I used the autoEQ feature with the built in RTA. If I moved the microphone six inches in any direction, it came up with a totally different correction curve. If I RTA'd from the chair and let it do its thing -- I thought it sounded like crap. I'm 100% with Mike on this one -- I got much better results (sound) by looking at the areas where the Behringer was trying to apply EQ, then killing the graphic section and making broader adjustments with the Parametric EQ. As is usually the case with me, when something starts having high fiddle and hassle factor -- I pull it from the system. Basically, I finally figured out I didn't have the skill sets to use it right, always second guessed what I did/was doing, and was always worrying about "what was right." I developed a very bad case of audionervosa with that thing in the system.

[bodcaw boy]

"i have some proto horns (mod'd tractrix of course!) i made that are in between the 402 and 510 that, if i can find them..."

I think I'm going to send Tony Reed over to Valerie's and have him ****** the one off of PK's Jubilee and replace it with a K-J-5, I don't think she'll notice. I'll then have Crites reverse engineer it and see if he'll get a mold made.

Seriously, can you tell us the story of that horn?

Believe me, I've thought about doing that. How do you reverse engineer a horn?

Tony

you make the train go backward...

boy!!

[bodcaw boy]

I'm not sure I would recommend a graphic EQ in a home setting...it's just not the right tool for the kinds of compensation that you would want to be doing. I would recommend something more along the lines of a parametric EQ - maybe 4 or 5 bands per channel.

I've used a lot of the older Ashly crossovers and equalizers and they've always been durable pieces of gear with low noise floor and intuitive operation. They do what they're supposed to and nothing else...the way it should be. I'd compare them favorably to crown...reliable and cost-effective, but not always the absolute best option.

Keep in mind that with any Graphic EQ, any attenutation on a single band is going to introduce some amount of ripple throughout the entire bandwidth of the device. And often, the Q of the attenuation changes with the magnitude of attenuation as well. The better devices implement a few tricks to minimize this behavior and will have all sorts of names they advertise it by (ie "Constant Q") - I suppose it's not as big of a deal anymore with the newer stuff, but even some of the very expensive older equipment would have these problems. One of the advantages to going digital is that you can completely avoid all of these issues - instead of at best minimizing them.

Some other brands you might consider would be dbx, Rane, PreSonus, Alesis...

Avoid brands like Rolls, Peavey, Samson, Behringer....

i like behringer....forgive me?

boy!!

[bodcaw boy]

I would go digital so I could play with time delay. I've looked at just about everything out there, and all the decent units are fairly expensive. Pretty much don't have a choice but to start with the Behringer. I would eventually upgrade -- imagine that. At any rate, I don't have to worry about right now. If and when the time comes, the guys at Parts Express might even be willing to pull a Behringer and Ashly XR-1001 for me play around with for a week or two -- they done that kind of thing for me before.

Chris, you should go forward with that project -- it sure sounds pretty good to me. You have all the stuff -- just do it.

Tony, if I go to the front door and distract her, can you and Dee sneak in through the back?

Dean, After listening to your Khorns a few years now and own an EQ, did you find yourself tampering with the low end of the bass horn to achieve a "flatter" curve or did you leave the EQ at 0db. Or did you just bypass.

I used the autoEQ feature with the built in RTA. If I moved the microphone six inches in any direction, it came up with a totally different correction curve. If I RTA'd from the chair and let it do its thing -- I thought it sounded like crap. I'm 100% with Mike on this one -- I got much better results (sound) by looking at the areas where the Behringer was trying to apply EQ, then killing the graphic section and making broader adjustments with the Parametric EQ. As is usually the case with me, when something starts having high fiddle and hassle factor -- I pull it from the system. Basically, I finally figured out I didn't have the skill sets to use it right, always second guessed what I did/was doing, and was always worrying about "what was right." I developed a very bad case of audionervosa with that thing in the system.

i bet i could get you a deal on that 38 deano??

boy!!

[ben.]

I f I felt the need for EQ, I'd use a parametric myself. Seems folks want to use graphs, though and I grew tired of fighting it a long time ago.

Dean - look at the Protea line from Ashly. There might be something in there that makes sense. I didn't use them a lot because the signal processing wasn't flexible enough when compared to the Shure P4800, but the sound quality was excellent and the GUI is piece o' cake easy.

Mike - what did you like better than which Shure & what did you try against it? The techs did have preferences slanted towards the BSS and Driveracks as they were used to them from their rock show rigs, but my company didn't have a good realtionship w/ Harman. I speced the DFR22 on a couple jobs, but only due to price pressure and they didn't pan out anyway. The P4800 4x8 was a great fit for the mostly medium size HOW jobs they had. Also - the tweaking urge would be cut down if you got the blank-faceplate version. Once you unplug the computer from it - no control. It was nice for the church soundmen we'd have to deal with.

Incidentally, we didn't use a lot of EQ from these processors. I made a deliberate effort to design for natural sound throughout the system - Allen&Heath boards when a mixer was necessary - AKG mics - (never got a chance to get some Earthworks out there - just too pricey when compared to AKG's stuff that always aquitted itself well in the field) - mostly EV speakers with the medium format DH7. QRx and Xi - the ZX1 were nice and natural sounding for distributive designs. Sorry Roy - I talked to them about Klipsch when I came on board but they were happy with Telex.

[DrWho]

Basically all the typical driverack and BSS stuff that all them old

guys were biasing me with []...I was a youngen

(still am) back in the day and didn't have much say over purchases and

wasn't the one dialing things in either - but I remember what my ears

heard. Usually I can remember what everything looked like, but I didn't

start paying attention to model numbers until more recently

so I've gotta look up pictures to get exact model numbers. In fact, it

turns out I've used the EV Dx38 in many different settings without

realizing it was the same unit Roy was pushing for the Jubilees.

But ya, it always seems like the people actually making the purchases

seem to be more easily swayed by the wonderful sales pitches [6] (no

offense to the honest sales people out there...) - I can understand

where the sales people are coming from considering they have to push

products to maintain their dealer status, but somewhere you gotta draw

the line when a simple driver recone ($300 tops?) turns into a $16,000

"repair"...[*-)]

One of my favorite installed systems was running a huge rack of ashly

and rane analog processing and then sent out to another rack filled

with Crown CTs amps. All of the monitor sends and FOH mix had both

graphic EQ's (for minor tweaking) and preset and unpreset parametric EQ's.

And then the entire patchbay was paralleled out to a recording studio

isolated from the auditorium for doing a completely seperate live

recording mix. Even the inserts and aux sends were available too. I

can't even begin to fathom the cost of all that signal processing on

tap, but sure enough it all got replaced with a single Shure 4800 a few

years later [6] It's a fine unit, but man it just wasn't the same. I

think they did a straight up trade too.... [] Maybe I'm just biased by all the negative situations I associate with it...

[oldbuckster]

Deang, trying to wade through all of this, bottom line, Are you selling those Khorns, or just thinking about selling them? Is selling them REALLY what you want to do at this point?I am not sure I have a feel for what you want to do, or have I missed a point along the way?It would certainly be worth deep consideration on my part to think about those Khorns, is there a better pair for sale...I don't think so. This is not an offer to buy........I just would like to get a clear picture of what you plan to do, so I can decide what I need to do........it will not be an easy sell on this end.........the wife is dug in...in the "NO"mode.....Hey, stranger things have happened....................I'm not a tease...have stated many times, Khorns in the future.............I am not in a rush..........

[DrWho]

i like behringer....forgive me?

lol, surely you wouldn't consider the behringer on par with the EV???

Why are we whispering?

[Coytee]

Deang, trying to wade through all of this, bottom line, Are you selling those Khorns, or just thinking about selling them? Is selling them REALLY what you want to do at this point?I am not sure I have a feel for what you want to do, or have I missed a point along the way?It would certainly be worth deep consideration on my part to think about those Khorns, is there a better pair for sale...I don't think so. This is not an offer to buy........I just would like to get a clear picture of what you plan to do, so I can decide what I need to do........it will not be an easy sell on this end.........the wife is dug in...in the "NO"mode.....Hey, stranger things have happened....................I'm not a tease...have stated many times, Khorns in the future.............I am not in a rush..........

Buckette... I'd surmise he's simply come to an emotional decision that IF his conditions are met, he'd be willing to part with them. If his conditions are NOT met, then he's perfectly happy keeping them. In other words, he's not in a position to NEED to sell them, as such, the barganing chips are on his side. (as contrasted lets say, with someone who's lost their job and has to pay the mortgage, they are in a cash flow jam all the sudden)

I'd contend that you always want to sell something when you don't NEED to as it allows you the strength of position & time.

I'd say this is his reality.

This comment has yet to be endorsed by Deang