Deang Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 Maron, I guess you've done this? The guy who bought my Klipschorns wants me to do a few things to them before he takes delivery, and this is one of the things he wants me to do. Most of the critical T/S paramenters look about the same as the K-33, but vc inductance and resistance are double. I'm having trouble seeing any real advantage to this mod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted February 19, 2007 Share Posted February 19, 2007 With the 4" voicecoil...We have found better definition & clarity in the 300hz to 400hz area....Sheltie Dave & Carl had whitniss,d (heard) that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linkalley Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 yes!!! even hard hea[]ring maron can hear that one. way to go maron!!! i am with you on that one.[|-)] the difference between 2inch v.c. & 4 inch is noticable. link in ok. land!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Not that I have a need to know but what is a TAD 1601A? JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 21, 2007 Author Share Posted February 21, 2007 http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/product/details/0,,2076_310070073_37112,00.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Wow! For $750.00 it must be good. Is that a drop-in item, like you just bolt it in? JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 As my grandpa used to say...If you want to play, you got to pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Isn't that woofer *slightly* beyond overkill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Isn't that woofer *slightly* beyond overkill? Cheaper to buy a digital parametric EQ and a couple of used amps on the stock woofer to up the 300-400 hz dip. Claude, but what the heck do I know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscarsear Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I've read that the 1601a has had problems dealing with power inputs over 30 watts even though it's rated to accept 150 watts. The 1601b has similar specs but is rated for 500 watt input. Edgar uses a TAD 12 inch woofer in his big sub-woofer rig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 21, 2007 Author Share Posted February 21, 2007 30 watts? Do you mind if I ask where you heard that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Where is the T/S on that woofer? Don't see it on the link. What is the VAS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscarsear Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 30 watts? Do you mind if I ask where you heard that? I read that on an audio asylum thread. I believe the term used was that they "rubbed" when driven at over 30 watts. Just passing it along for whatever it's worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Brand TAD Model TL-1601a Description Cast aluminium frame, textile surround PA Bass Range / type Woofer Typical use PA Recomended enclosure Series Manufacturer TAD / Pioneer Pro Order nr Production status active 2003 Nom. diamerer [inch] 16 Vas [Liters] 304 Qts 0,31 Qes 0,32 Qms 6,8 Fs [Hz] 28 Sensitivity [dB] 97 Max Power [ W ] 150 Power definition Nominal Lower freq [Hz] 28 Upper freq [Hz] 1000 Rec. Filter freq [Hz] xmax [mm] 8 Moving mass [ g ] 117 Disp area [m2] 0,0881 Disp Vol [cm3] 705 xdamage [mm] 36 Air gap [mm] Coil height [mm] Coil diameter [mm] Cms [mm/N] 2,761 Rms [N*s/m] Magnet weight [gr] Magnet height [mm] Magnet diameter [mm] Magnet material - Re [ohm] 6,6 Z [ohm] 8 L [mH] 1,7 Bl [Tm] 20,5 Magnetic flux [Wb] 260 Flux density [T] 11,8 Outer diam. [mm] 400 Bolt circle [mm] 370 Nr of bolts [Nr] 8 Cutout [mm] 352 Weight [Kg] 11 Height [mm] Depth [mm] 167 Driver volume [Liters] Frequency SPL / Z Home page http://www.pioneerelectronics.com Data sheet [url} Enterd by - Date reviewed 2003-10-21 Date added 2003-10-21 http://www.thielesmall.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscarsear Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 So what's the deal with these anyway? Are they a step up from the K33? Are the 2 easily interchangable? They've been around for awhile and yet they not been recognized for this purpose before that I can find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 I dunno - I'm kinda skeptical about dropping new drivers into the khorn - it's the horn that's the problem, not the driver... [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 I dunno - I'm kinda skeptical about dropping new drivers into the khorn - it's the horn that's the problem, not the driver... [] I'm even more skeptical when I would have to send $1,200 ito Japan for paper, coil, magnet, and frame to replace something made in the USA that's already proven to work. Talk about the law of diminishing returns. If I were to do this, I would, by law of the golden ear, have to spend at least $1,000 on a pair of speaker cables and use only silver solder for the tips. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 Oh, the skeptics................................... I'm a bit disappointed with the questioning responses thus far. After all, haven't we read a number of threads about the mighty Jubilee that outline one of its benefits is to improve upon and smooth out the bass response - even in the 200-400 hz range. Of course, the Jubs ability to go higher up (and smoother) opens up the door to using a host of intriguing two inch drivers, but a Klipschorn bass bin with a TAD driver should be a much fairer fight - at least until you reach the true upper limits of the Khorn bass bin. And after all, what have the pro Jubs out there in homes been cutting off at? 500hz? I would like to see the Jub bass bin dialed in at 800-900 and see how much you can actually get out of it. Based on Roy's statements and the papers, it can probably do it with ease, but I am curious to see it fly that high (instead of being "skeptical"). Just because the K33 does an admirable job for the Klipschorn, that does not mean that there is not room for improvement in the overall bass response (and sound quality). Its never been a big secret. A number of proposed upgrades have been suggested and implemented over the years, from small bass drivers in the upper bass region to lowering the high pass to 200 or so and going with a big Altec 288, etc. The Klipsch party line response is that the bass bin design artificially limits the overall upper end response (and smoothness), but if that conclusion was based only on using K33 woofers, is the conclusion flawed? That's not to say that the Klipschorn does not improve more by modding the top end, and I like mine with the stock K33s - but they could be better if I had the extra jack to spend. Well, I have heard Maron's Klipschorns with the TAD bass drivers in them (and JBLs on the top end), and there is a considerable difference between Klipschorns with the TAD drivers and the stock K33s. Very,very smooth and even response all the way up. Soooo good that I would seriously think about upgrading to those drivers before I jumped on the rapidly accelerating commercial Jubilee train. Of course, the drivers are very expensive, but as Maron states, you gotta pay if you want to play. Are they worth it?? Well, I've seen people spend large jack on upgrades that may or may not work - so its a bit of a personal question - this cost benefit thing. On the other hand, maybe Dean will throw a pair of TADs in Smilin's upcoming Khorns and there will not be that much of a difference. At least I have heard the diff at Maron's pad. Maron, at least Dave and I know where you are coming from. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Hey Carl, I think them's some valid points - especially considering that you've heard them and others like myself have not. But as far as the khorn, I'm fairly confident that the roll-off at the top of the bass bin is the result of the horn folding. The K-33 is good at least to 600Hz (from the cornwall) and I would argue maybe as high as 800Hz before it craps out. If the horn itself was capable of passing 600Hz, then you should see it with the K-33 driver. All that to say - I'm not seeing how you get better output at 400Hz by going to a different driver....unless perhaps the driver has a natural bump in that region? How would that be any different than EQ on the K-33? Or is the advantage to the TAD that it's just simply got less distortion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted February 23, 2007 Share Posted February 23, 2007 Mike, Maron is the veteran with long-time expertise in the area and has learned more than I can ever hope to. I'm sure that he can explain it some. All that I know is what I heard. The TAD sounded like it had less distortion than the K-33, and I think the major improvement was the smoothness of the response in the region. I don't think that the bass horn in the Khorn will go much above 400 hz either due to design constraints, but this sure sounded smoother in the 200-400 hz region. As far as the K-33s ability to do 600 and even 800 nicely, well just because the K-33 is used in the Cornwall and has been used by some in the Belle at higher frequencies doesn't mean that it is all that smooth up there. I've heard much smoother responses up in the region from some of the Altec bass drivers - as opposed to the K-33. Sure, the K-33s do it, but I always thought that things became ragged sounding on the upper bass end when pushed that high. As for the eq idea, fancy that you mention that. I currently have my Behringer DEQ2496 on my rear Belles, but as soon as I get some extra time (whenever the heck that is), I'm going to throw the Behringer on my Klipschorn bass bins and play around with it a bit. Oh, the mic, etc. - kinda a pain instead of listening to music these days, but if it improves - its one more final tweak. You won't see me playing with the upper end at all - its really good. But, it could be time to play with the bass bin. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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