Question for Bodcaw Boy (Roy)

[sfogg]

Dean

"-- the ability to adjust the bracket so you can point the horn down into the area where you are sitting. This is critical for me -- I have to have that. If not, the horn/driver would be shooting three feet over my head."

Constant coverage grasshopper.... as long as you are in its coverage pattern you are fine. No need to laser align these with your ears like those poor fools with their collapsing vertical polar patterns.

Take advantage of the constant coverage. Don't think about 'aiming' at the listener... think of shadowing your walls/floor/ceiling..... to involve the room less.

Shawn

[Deang]

"...think of shadowing your walls/floor/ceiling...to involve the room less."

Interesting. O.K., what do you mean by shadowing?

[Coytee]

Dean, I for one am going to be keenly interested to hear some (any) of your comments after you've had these for a while. Shawn had it with the constant coverage thing (although maybe by shadowing the wall, he means for you to slink around there like Kato of the Green Hornet?)

I was going to make a comment that I sit below my direct line of fire and it is NOT an issue, but then, I don't sit as low as I understand you to say you do.

Perhaps getting off the floor will help? []

I've got other thoughts/comments I'm keeping to myself and am wondering if you will stumble onto them when I read your reports.

[sfogg]

Dean,

"Interesting. O.K., what do you mean by shadowing?"

The K402 is a directional horn. Think of the horn as sort of like a spotlight... a spotlight that has a specific dispersion (coverage pattern) with very even illumination within that pattern. Areas outside of the coverage pattern are in the shadows.

Because of its even illumination (constant coverage... CD) it doesn't really matter if the spotlight is aimed directly at you or not. You get the same illumination as long as you are in its pattern.

So... instead of worrying about aiming directly at you you take advantage of it being a directional horn to involve the room less.. meaning less reflections from the room hitting you. Your horns are going to be very close to your side walls for example. Toe them in strongly so the near side wall falls into the 'shadow' of the horn. That will reduce early reflections from the side walls which will improve clarity and imaging. Ditto floor/ceiling. This is basically what Roy means when he is talking about the benefits of that big horn in a smaller room. You can use its directionality ('cause it is big) to your advantage to cut back on first reflections and such that would be more of a problem with say cones/domes so close to the side walls. The further the reflections have to travel before hitting you the lower in level they will be and the more delayed they will be.

When I first started using the 805Bs (as two ways at first) their directionality really shocked me. If I had the center channel playing alone and I walked up next to the horn the sound *literally* jumped to the back of the room. The first couple of times it happened I thought my surrounds were still on it was that dramatic. What was actually happening was I was walking into the 'shadow' of the horn and the centers reflection from the back wall was actually dominant (louder) so I localized the sound as originating from back there. I ended up increasing absorption on the rear wall as well as adding velvet drapes to further cut down on its reflections. I also basically used this to avoid my side walls by stuffing the outer most cells to prevent near side wall reflections which effectively reduced the coverage pattern of the L/R horns to 60x40 instead of 80x40.

Shawn

[IndyKlipschFan]

I want to say something in that I see both sides of this too.

Paul Parrot is tired, as a lot of us are, of "some people" who take apart what Paul designed and now Roy designed and getting into "upgrade itus" which is always debatable.. How many times do we see a person new to Klipsch with the following lines.. "I just bought XYZ speaker... (sometimes not even arrived yet..) I know I need to change... x overs drivers rip this out.. do this.. drill into the speaker itself..." the list goes on and on.. I want to say whooaaa there cowboy...... Relax for a bit and just enjoy what you have.

To me it is insane that some do not just listen to what was designed, as it was designed, in your living room for a while. One thing Parrot said that it is so true, too, you can change things with different drivers , different x overs... for a while you hear something different even sometimes pleasing.. But LONG term..... do you get ear fatigue as it grows on you that something is out of balance from the original design? In the end if you want to change it, go ahead. But also understand what your doing along the way too. It is no longer a speaker as designed by Klipsch anymore... And now your into "tweaker hobby dome." LOL

We now have a Jubilee Bottom with a HUGE horn that sounds WONDERFUL.. The problem is on the forum, and to the older heritage crowd is this... This is the completion of a project started by PWK in one era.... and completed by Roy in another.. What or when do we agree it is a heritage product, or a cinema product... or what is it and how/ what is it designed for? We can argue all day long if PWK would approve, but in some ways does it even matter if he did or would ??? The end result is what is crucial here.. We have a new speaker to enjoy!

If we gave it another name.. maybe the pride issue might go away too. There are so many heated debates on all sides.. Should (Klipsch) even allow a speaker for home use, to better the flagship Klipschorn? Make no mistake too, this is a Cinema Line Theater made speaker currently as it is listed... that we are bringing into our home for WOW impressive results! And something this big, is impressive..

Should we ignore what it is... is what it is.??? So few of us have heard it as a stereo pair with different music on over time to even begin to appreciate it too? The debate goes on and both sides have valid arguments. I for one love the idea we have this speaker to begin with. In some way I am sure PWK is looking down on us glad there are purists, too, to his designs but also glad the life of Klipsch and his baby Jubilee is growing up and moving on too. Just my own gratuitous thoughts. LOL.

[ClaudeJ1]

I want to say something in that I see both sides of this too.

Paul Parrot is tired, as a lot of us are, of "some people" who take apart what Paul designed and now Roy designed and getting into "upgrade itus" which is always debatable.. How many times do we see a person new to Klipsch with the following lines.. "I just bought XYZ speaker... (sometimes not even arrived yet..) I know I need to change... x overs drivers rip this out.. do this.. drill into the speaker itself..." the list goes on and on.. I want to say whooaaa there cowboy...... Relax for a bit and just enjoy what you have.

Since I am guilty of starting this thread, let me just say that I caught the "upgrade disease" from this forum, real bad. Then yesterday, I just simply took some audio grade polypropylen capacitors I got from a friend of mine and replaced the original capacitors (big cans) in my center channel LaScala's AA network. Even though I'm only listening to 1/3 of the front sound, the difference was night and day, detail wise, it made everything more crisp and with greater depth, amazing. I guess I never realized how badly age and ESR would affect the sound (thank you Bob Crites).

Next step is to disconnect the JBL's hooked up to my Khorn's tweeter section of the AA's (more detailed than the T-35's but too bright). When I replace those caps, I will plug in the original T-35's and see how it sounds. It may be that all I needed were new capacitors in my 30-year old AA networks (I was a 23 year old when I got my 3-channel Klipsh array). In the mean time, I will build Walnut enclosures for the JBL 2404's and the new Xover I'll be making (thanks John Warren) so I can at least compare them to properly functioning stock Khorn drivers instead of comparing to old/faulty capacitors.

Heck, I may even end up selling off this extra crap I have collected and sticking to the originals. I don't think the K-400 is as "relatively bad" as 511 and Trachorn devotees make it out to be, I hear lots of detail and depth with my setup, but I will find out the truth for myself, eventually, in MY room, which is the most important component anyhow.

My Klispsh sound journey began when myself and another curious Detroit

News paperboy ventured into the Hi-Fi Workshop store, only 2 blocks

from out newspaper station. The men there were patient with these

inquisitive 13 year olds in 1967. It only took me 10 more years to save

up the money to own Klispchorns (installed in my mobile home no less).

I got married that same year and moved to an apartment. When I turned

in my paperwork, the lady of the park said, "Oh, you're that one that

has been entertaining your neighbors."..............Hey, I was just

exercising one of the 4 principles.

Meanwhile, continuing the journey here 40 years later has been enlightening and positive, so I encourage you all to continue making constructive comments backed with facts and experience instead of wasting bandwidth with insider/personal/flaming stuff.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Claude.. I did not mean replace what needs to be replaced.. Bad capacitors..

But some you have to agree, they jump out there before even experiencing what they have!

Great post.

[seti]

I want to say something in that I see both sides of this too.

Paul Parrot is tired, as a lot of us are, of "some people" who take apart what Paul designed and now Roy designed and getting into "upgrade itus" which is always debatable..  How many times do we see a person new to Klipsch with the following lines.. "I just bought XYZ speaker... (sometimes not even arrived yet..) I know I need to change... x overs drivers  rip this out.. do this.. drill into the speaker itself..."  the list goes on and on..  I want to say whooaaa there cowboy...... Relax for a bit and just enjoy what you have.

To me it is insane that some do not just listen to what was designed, as it was designed, in your living room for a while.  One thing Parrot said that it is so true, too, you can change things with different drivers , different x overs...  for a while you hear something different even sometimes pleasing.. But LONG term.....  do you get ear fatigue as it grows on you that something is out of balance from the original design?  In the end if you want to change it, go ahead.  But also understand what your doing along the way too.  It is no longer a speaker as designed by Klipsch anymore... And now your into "tweaker hobby dome."  LOL

We now have a Jubilee Bottom with a HUGE horn that sounds WONDERFUL.. The problem is on the forum, and to the older heritage crowd is this... This is the completion of a project started by PWK in one era....  and completed by Roy in another.. What or when do we agree it is a heritage product, or a cinema product...  or what is it and how/ what is it designed for?  We can argue all day long if PWK would approve, but in some ways does it even matter if he did or would ???  The end result is what is crucial here..    We have a new speaker to enjoy!

If we gave it another name.. maybe the pride issue might go away too. There are so many heated debates on all sides.. Should (Klipsch) even allow a speaker for home use, to better the flagship Klipschorn?  Make no mistake too, this is a Cinema Line Theater made speaker currently as it is listed...  that we are bringing into our home for WOW impressive results! And something this big, is impressive..

Should we ignore what it is... is what it is.??? So few of us have heard it as a stereo pair with different music on over time to even begin to appreciate it too?  The debate goes on and both sides have valid arguments.  I for one love the idea we have this speaker to begin with.  In some way I am sure PWK is looking down on us glad there are purists, too, to his designs but also glad the life of Klipsch and his baby Jubilee is growing up and moving on too.  Just my own gratuitous thoughts.  LOL.

This hobby will always be full of upgradeitus. I listened to my Belles for over two years as is and then I replaced the caps but haven't made a change to them since. I love my Belles. However, next on my list is Klipschorns and I will probably listen stock for a while and if necessary replace caps. I wouldn't go the trachorn route or even alternate tweeter route as they are not Klipsch after that IMHO.

 I do eventually want to own PWK's final bass horn design the Klipschorn Jubilee. Just because we can't get the 403 pictured with PWK does not make this a complete loss. Roy worked with PWK and understood the design goals of the project. If this was not the case there would be cries of bastardization. I trust Roy to delivery am amazing 2 way Klipschorn Jubilee that PWK would have been proud of. This was a speaker system designed for the consumer that didn't make it to the consumer market which just happened to work very well in the ProCinema line. At least it got put into production somewhere as it could have been ditched altogether. 

[Parrot]

The box robs you of an important feature -- the ability to adjust the bracket so you can point the horn down into the area where you are sitting. This is critical for me -- I have to have that. If not, the horn/driver would be shooting three feet over my head.

As I posted in another thread, Andy wrote this:

The plans for the home-version Jubilee when I saw it were to
incorporate a vertically adjustable arcing device for the tweeter
horn...IOW...you could adjust its aim up and down somewhat...using
screw-wheel adjusters at the rear of the mounting of it...and all of
this VISIBLE hardware was/is? planned to be gold anodized, etc...for
aesthetic reasons...the center finely veneered panel was also designed
to be removable and replaceable...so that one could adapt the speaker
to changing decor of the room over time....whereas the Klipschorn is
"what you see is what you get"!: aesthetic versatility matchpoint,
Jubilee!

This would have been for the 403, I would guess. It would render moot the 402's superiority verticalwise.

Also it was a really cool idea to have the front veneer panel be something that could slide off. That way if you wanted to change the wood look to oak, say, you could, or if you scraped it all up like Roy did with the Jubilee in his lab, you could easily fix it.

[IndyKlipschFan]

Kinda like changing colors on a Avantgarde trio speaker I guess too.

I can just see these in a bar in key west, looking like something from a Jimmy Buffett Decor.. LOL.

Parrot heads unite!

[sfogg]

"It would render moot the 402's superiority verticalwise."

Nope.....

Shawn

[Parrot]

Yep . . .

[bodcaw boy]

Yep . . .

nope.......................unless you just want to make stuff up then............yep!.......oh.........yea.........i forgot.........that's what you do..........poo poo

have a blessed day,

roy delgado

[sfogg]

Nope....

I'd tell you to learn about power response and how that effects the end result of how a speaker sounds in a room.

But we both know you won't do that.....

Shawn

[Parrot]

It's funny, isn't it, that Shawn and the Bad Cowboy refuse to post the polar patterns of all Klipsch Heritage speakers. After all, we might just see that those simply dreadful "collapsing vertical polar patterns" aren't anything to lose sleep over after all. We might see that the 402 is great for the most anal of gearheads but silly for normal people.

Anyway, Shawn, I don't see why you let any speaker component limitations trouble you when you can just fool around with your Lexicon and make everything perfect.

[Parrot]

Bad Cowboy,

You wanted me to check with PWK to ask him where he put your slide rule. Well, I got out the OUIJA board and put your question to him. He was surprised that you didn't already know but suggested that you go to your local airport.

[sfogg]

"It's funny, isn't it, that Shawn and the Bad Cowboy refuse to post the
polar patterns of all Klipsch Heritage speakers."

What
is funnier is that you are ignoring the fact that the later designed
Heritage speakers have constant coverage horns in them. You know the
speakers that were designed later on... after the designers gained
experience and perhaps learned new things. Some people do actually
learn new things and gain different perspectives throughout their
life.... not everyone just reads one thing and then parrots it back
forever and ever.

But feel free to keep going on and on about this though, it doesn't help your argument at all....

"After all, we might just see that those simply dreadful "collapsing
vertical polar patterns" aren't anything to lose sleep over after all."

Nope,
again the later Heritage designs don't have this.. at least not on the
mid-horn. The importance of power response of a speaker and how it
interacts with a room have been known for decades. It is nothing new.
AR was a big proponent of this ages ago for example and there are many
examples of this thinking today. Check out the thinking behind a set of
Revel's for example.

Humm...
maybe that is why the Heritage speakers designed within the last
few decades have constant coverage horns in them?

There is also another huge difference
between the older Heritage and the Jubilee with regards to the constant
coverage that you have completely and utterly missed as well....

Shawn

[Parrot]

I really don't care about newer Klipsch speakers. Old Heritage is good enough for me and for the majority of the people on the Forum, for that matter. Now of course gearheads are going to think that they can always improve things and that new is better. This is called "nowism," root word "now."

The issue at hand is the K-403 which PWK chose for his home Jubilee, versus the K-402 which he SAW but never considered for the home Jubilee. The K-402 is the horn that the Bad Cowboy is pushing. The important thing is whether the K-403 would be perfectly fine in a home environment for normal people, or whether one has to use the so-called butt-ugly monstrosity that is the K-402.

For some reason, the Bad Cowboy does not want to discuss the K-403 unless it is pulled out of him, tiny info bit by tiny info bit. Interesting, isn't it?

[Trey Cannon]

As a point of Information: We do not supply curves of our Home products due to the fact that MOST end users would not or could not understand them.

That info is on the site for the Pro products.

[sfogg]

"I really don't care about newer Klipsch speakers."

Esp. when their design contradicts the position you are desperate to hold onto....

"Old Heritage is good enough for me"

Then why exactly do you care about any of this? Sure seems to me like you are trying to delude yourself because your top dogs are no longer top dogs.......

"and for the majority of the people on the Forum, for that matter."

Argumentum ad populum. Bose is fine for the majority of speaker owners, for that matter.

Worry about yourself.

"The important thing is whether the K-403 would be perfectly fine in a home environment for normal people,"

'Perfectly fine' doubtful. Wether or not it could work with satisfactory results would likely depend strongly on the room it was used in and how a listener was setup with it.

"or whether one has to use the so-called butt-ugly monstrosity that is the K-402."

Nope, they could use the K510.

"For some reason, the Bad Cowboy does not want to discuss the K-403 unless it is pulled out of him, tiny info bit by tiny info bit. Interesting, isn't it? "

There is little reason to discuss it. It isn't in production... you can't get it even if you wanted it. So why waste time discussing an inferior horn?

And like I said....

There is also another huge difference between the older Heritage and the Jubilee with regards to the constant coverage that you have completely and utterly missed as well....

Come on Parrot... put on your thinking feathers and see if you can figure out what the difference is and why it is important to think about WRT constant coverage.....

Shawn