Re-thinking SET

[pauln]

A little while back Rick (Horns an Tubes) came over for a listening evening; we played my Wright 3.5's and his Bottlehead SETs on my La Scalas. A few days later he wrote me a note of his impressions and mentioned that while nice, the bass was sort of missing. This got me to thinking so I pulled out my mid 70s Pioneer SA6500 and did come listening. This amp has more bass but the overall presentation is not quite right to my ears... the way I would describe it is "airy" - the sound is sort of spread out and the bass, though there, is sort of unpredictable - sometimes a little boomey, sometimes OK, and sometimes peculiar.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

After a few days I replaced it with my Nikko TRM-600, made in 1975. This amp is 35W over the Pioneer's 30W. The sound of this amp I tested a while back with classical music and thought it was very good. I have been listening to this amp for a couple of days and am liking it a lot. The middle and high end is comparable to the Wrights, but the bass is something else... Somehow it is more powerful, more extended, but not boomey at all! Whereas the Pioneer bass was sort of goofy and unpredictable, the Nikko has a very smooth presentation - deep bass, no peaks, really great to listen to. I put on some records I usually don't listen to - Pink Floyd A Momentary Lapse of Reason, some old Emerson Lake and Palmer, and some old Stevie Wonder. All this stuff sounds fantastic, very smooth with real low bass... My world is upside down!

I know that folks tend to affiliate into different camps as far as amps go, and I have been a big SET fanatic for the last five years, but this SS Nikko is freaking me out a bit. It really does sound great; good enough that I could live with it as my only amp.

I used a Yamaha amp for thirty years and when I got the SETs I realized that the Yamaha was actually grainy, overly bright, and strident. As my only real reference for SS I figured all SS had this characteristic.

I know that 70s SS amps made in the US had a lot of problems, but that was mostly from inexperience. The Japanese had been working with transistors in consumer audio throughout the 60s and had a big head start in this area. The 80s saw a reversion to cost/value manufacturing and quality seems to have suffered.

Anyway, I have been listening to the Nikko for a few days and now Im confused. It sounds so good I am considering selling the SET gear. Is that crazy? Somehow the Nikko and the La Scalas just work together really well. Maybe the phono EQ in the Nikko is really good.

I bought the Nikko on ebay for almost nothing and the SET gear (preamp and power amp monoblocks) cost me over $2500. The SETs do some nice things with leading edge transients of natural instruments, profound imaging, and natural there sound, but the Nikko is really making me rethink my whole system.

I guess I need to apologize to at least some of the SS users out there there really do exist some SS gear that does the whole thing. Im going to continue my listening evaluation to be sure, but it looks like I may be putting my SET gear up for acquisition in the near future.

I really dont know what to say, my ears are telling me that the Nikko is a fantastic amp.

Pauln

[oldbuckster]

Pauln, in a few days your opinion could swing the other way.............I am not a SET fan, have heard 2 different SET units, months apart from each other, and still had the same results, High's and Mid's were excellent, Bass was very lacking..........Just my ears, I guess, I understand different people listen to different music, hear different things.............Many times I see people post about crap 70's SS gear, and wonder what they mean. Marantz is 70's gear, they are good, and now sought after. Pioneer, Sansui, Kenwood all trashed on here, were good units, still are. I sold my Sony, got a Yamaha, nice unit, alittle bright, maybe, but nice non-the less..............and then........a Scott 299-D found it's way into my basement room, and turned it all upside down. To be honest, I think the highs and mids all sound good, Klipsch speakers have alot to do with it, not that much difference in SS, or the Scott, and remembering back, the SET's were good too, but nothing I would sink Big Money into.........Now, let's get to the point.....The Scott 299-D puts them all in their place when it comes to the Bass response.......there is no contest as to what the Scott does to the bottom end......not sure what you would call the Scott, a push-pull maybe, I don't know, all I know is what I hear. I am running H2's with the Scott, can't believe they are the same speakers........Bass shy my a$$.......and then my sub found it's way into the circuit, and all I can say is, "Wow".....Solid, deep, clean, NON-boomy Bass. Don't know what you are going to do, only you have that answer, but maybe you should just relax for a week or two before you decide what to do with your SET's. You already own them, gives you more choices for music listening, and next week you could think SS was Crap again. Take your time, don't rush.........or, did I just sucked into a tube vs. SS debate ? No debate here, I now own both, and that's the way it will stay.........OK, I don't own SET, just doesn't work for me and my listening tastes.....................

[Mallette]

Paul:

I don't belong to a "camp," except perhaps as indicated by my Forum signature.

Dave

[cjgeraci]

Paul:

I don't belong to a "camp," except perhaps as indicated by my Forum signature.

Dave

Agreed, Dave - that's why I pretty much try to avoid commenting in the controversial amp threads, whether it be ss v. tubes or set v. pp.

Nice post Paul. My only take is to let your ears rather than others' opinions decide. I've owned and enjoyed SET and now run a ss amp, a chip amp and two pp tube amps in my system. There is no perfect amp in my opinion, and its all about making your ears happy.

Keep the SET for awhile but keep listening to the Nikko. Maybe evoke the "six month" rule.

Carl.

[stormin]

Hey Carl,

Did you trade your mcintosh for vrd's?

[Erik Mandaville]

Rick:

"It sounds so good I am considering selling the SET gear. Is that crazy?"

Of course you're not crazy. Use the amp (or any component) that sounds best to you. If I may, this is an example to a thread I began a few days ago, which has to do with the question concerning the most important part of the system. I also asked what others thought to be the least consistently performing component on a day-to-day basis. You have illustrated the answer (as far as what I had in mind) with your low-power hollow state single-ended vs higher power solid state experience. It's not the equipment, but rather the human element that I believe influences the sound of the system, literally, more than any electronic component or transducer (cartridge or loudspeaker). In that thread some indicated the source, other's the room; all of which are completely insignificant if a listener isn't present.

We have seen numerous instances where someone would say that his/her system has never sounded so good (after tweaking with new tubes, new crossovers, new CDP, preamp, or amp....), only to jump in the following day to reveal that they sat down to listen again and everything had fallen apart. What sounded amazing and fresh yesterday today sounded muffled, rolled-off, lifeless, whatever. It's happened to me lots of times, and is the element in all of this that leads to upgades (or downgrades) and changes. I also think we sometimes just get bored and want something new. I've felt that way at times, too.

BTW: I have a vintage Kenwood integrated amp from the '70s that surprises me by how good it sounds; and the bass, as you also indicated with the Nikko, is an improvement over the very low power amplifiers we have. But, the majority of music I like and listen to does not have really heavy bass, and our single-ended 300B or 2A3 amps really still do very well, for us. SET even works okay for home theater if what we're watching relies more on the story and dialogue than sound effects. I would be the first to say, though, that it is REALLY, really fun to experience the visceral sort of impact from some move sound tracks, and the single-ended 2A3s don't do as well for that in terms of lower frequencies and dynamic contrasts.

In another thread, someone said an amp should sound equally good regardless of music played. I can appreciate that, but I don't agree with it. We should use the components that sound best with the kind of music to which we listen, and in my experience amplifiers can be better suited to certain genres of music. One that works particularly well for metal and hard rock may not have the finesse and/or delicacy of classical strings or woodwinds. That, in fact, has been my experience and one of the reasons I keep using single-ended amps. I am soon to get an ST-70 that a friend has rebuilt for me, because I love the work he does. It's going to be one I'm not going to touch in terms of upgrades and modifications. It's being purchased because the craftsmanship is outstanding and because the stock Dynaco circuit is being preserved as a relic. If I want a modified ST-70, I can do that myself, but I know of people who have heard both stock and modified versions of the amp and still think the original is just fine.

Erik

edit: Have fun with your old/new amp!

[kev313]

Nice Paul; I love a post like this. You know, one that doesn't fly the flag for one side or another, but has a reasoned analysis of the potential limitations of a topology. I, myself, was in your spot not too long ago. I went through a few SET amps - Welborne Moondogs, Welborne DRD 45's and Wright 3.5's - before deciding they just were not working and going with a Shindo Montille (pp el84 @15 watts). The Shindo gave me the bass I was lacking without giving up too much to the SET.

That said, I am looking forward to getting back to SET now that my speakers have changed to allow bi-amping. IF Ron Welborne ever gets my Star Chief order worked out (which I am seriously beginning to doubt will happen), I will put those on my Oris horns and let something larger and SS handle the bass duties. I think that THAT might be the perfect SET application.

[Erik Mandaville]

"I know that folks tend to affiliate into different camps as far as amps"

True, and I think that's fine; people often associate with others who share similar hobbies (as in this Klipsch forum). That people then form military-esque alliances based on the kind of amps they use, for the purpose of battling out which is better or worse, is a throwback to childhood and in my view a very inexperienced and elementary way of approaching audio and appreciation of listening to music at home.

Talking about the merits and different characteristics of equipment is interesting to me.

Erik

[Coytee]

Have you considered the possiblity of biamping the LaScalas? Nikko on bottom & Wrights on top?

[NOSValves]

I'm not going to comment about the SET stuff. I will say I bet the Pioneer needs some power supply work. Unpredictable frequencyresponse is a sure sign of a filter cap problem. I'd quit using it all together until its checked out by a good SS technician.

Craig

[greg928gts]

I'm not going to comment about the SET stuff. I will say I bet the Pioneer needs some power supply work. Unpredictable frequencyresponse is a sure sign of a filter cap problem. I'd quit using it all together until its checked out by a good SS technician.

Craig

Oh yeah. I just had a Pioneer SX1250 serviced and the tech replaced at least a dozen caps.

Greg

[Groomlakearea51]

Fully agree with NOS and GTS928. SS can deteriorate over time, especially caps, etc. Couple years ago, I sent two of my AU-919's off for "scheduled" maintenance and when they came back, there was a plastic bag full of caps, etc. They just were no longer in spec, so the tech replaced them. But... the sound difference was much different, much better, etc. Those amps were "duty amps"; usually on 24/7 in the living room, my office, for FM, etc. I talked with the tech and we decided that 30 years of heat and constant use probably just was the cause. Did some research, tests, and talked with the tech (alot). It seems that SS amps apparently have a certain operating temperature by design. It actually takes about 5-10 minutes to warm up to that temp, and the key, according to the tech, is to maintain that temperature. So.... bought the chassis fans; fiddled around with the settings to have them turn on at just above the "operating temperature" and now when the amps come back from scheduled maintenance, there's usually no plastic bag with "dead parts". I imagine tubes have similar "requirements". I'd love to own some tube stuff, but usually spend all my spare "audio budget" money (spare??) on Klipsch speakers... Maybe some day I'll get a JM, Mac, etc. after I don't have to feed the kids anymore...

[jt1stcav]

I've always felt this way myself...although I'm lovin' my SET system and have no intentions of straying from it at this time, I still have a desire for quality high-end SS amplification. I've always been impressed with the early '70s McIntosh MC250 since owning one years ago and simply falling in love with its tonal characteristics (especially for an early transistorized McIntosh that was designed while in the shadows of great Mac tube amps before it). As I've always said, had I not gone the tube route, I could very well live to this day with the MC250 it's that damn good to my ears!

I wouldn't just yet think about selling off your SET gear...put it away for awhile or use it for another system. Enjoy your Nikko and what it's doing for your favorite music.

Paul, I don't know what your stance is on powered subwoofers, but have you ever considered (or tried) an active subwoofer in your SET system and your La Scalas? Since I primarily listen to bass-laden pipe organ music with my 300B SET system, and my RB-75s only go down to 42Hz, a powered sub (actually two) is a must for me to accurately reproduce the lowest octave pedal notes. Since Rick pointed out what he thought was a lack of bass in your SET system, was that ever a problem for you before this point was made, or with your Wright 3.5s did you feel you had adequate bass output with your choice of music?

[jacksonbart]

I had a similar break through when I went to an actual doctor that had graduated to an actual medical school, as opposed to 99 year old Doctor Nheatu Bombay, who under his past 3 years of ritualistic blood letting treatments, my gonorrhea actually gotten worse. Now I am clean again. Hurray.

[kev313]

too obvious to be clever

[|-)]

[Mallette]

I started a thread on my return from my latest Forum hiatus on the thought that I was really totally satisfied with my system and had no equipment envy. That largely remains true.

OTOH...There IS a hobby aspect to this game, and I am not immune. I was really taken with the sound of Paul and Rick's little amps on their visit, except for the Case of the Missing Bass (which, I will state again, was rolled off O, so politely and inoffensely).

So I am asking myself, "Self, what about a bi-amped K'horn system with a couple of nice SET amps driving the mid and tweeter horns, and the ST-70 the bass?

Possibly the solution to all my problems, personal, scientific, and aesthetic? Hmmm...

Dave

[Audible Nectar]

I started a thread on my return from my latest Forum hiatus on the thought that I was really totally satisfied with my system and had no equipment envy. That largely remains true.

OTOH...There IS a hobby aspect to this game, and I am not immune. I was really taken with the sound of Paul and Rick's little amps on their visit, except for the Case of the Missing Bass (which, I will state again, was rolled off O, so politely and inoffensely).

So I am asking myself, "Self, what about a bi-amped K'horn system with a couple of nice SET amps driving the mid and tweeter horns, and the ST-70 the bass?

Possibly the solution to all my problems, personal, scientific, and aesthetic? Hmmm...

Dave

I'm surprised we don't see more conversations and systems like this.....except if I was going to go to the trouble to bi-amp, I would be tempted to use SS on the bottom and tubes up top, which plays to the strengths of each topology. I think there is much to be gained in the bass area with a good SS amp vs. most tube designs. And yes, this places SET as a much more viable option, because if you remove the burden of having the SET do the bass, that 3.5 watts goes a LOT further.

[kev313]

I started a thread on my return from my latest Forum hiatus on the thought that I was really totally satisfied with my system and had no equipment envy. That largely remains true.

OTOH...There IS a hobby aspect to this game, and I am not immune. I was really taken with the sound of Paul and Rick's little amps on their visit, except for the Case of the Missing Bass (which, I will state again, was rolled off O, so politely and inoffensely).

So I am asking myself, "Self, what about a bi-amped K'horn system with a couple of nice SET amps driving the mid and tweeter horns, and the ST-70 the bass?

Possibly the solution to all my problems, personal, scientific, and aesthetic? Hmmm...

Dave

I'm surprised we don't see more conversations and systems like this.....except if I was going to go to the trouble to bi-amp, I would be tempted to use SS on the bottom and tubes up top, which plays to the strengths of each topology. I think there is much to be gained in the bass area with a good SS amp vs. most tube designs. And yes, this places SET as a much more viable option, because if you remove the burden of having the SET do the bass, that 3.5 watts goes a LOT further.

There must be an echo in here []

[ttrhp]

Paul,

I guess I am not alone.I have 2 horn system.avantgarde horn & klipsch. My intention is to share my SET(wavac,art audio,Vaic) amplifiers within my 2 system,but for some mysterious reason.The klipsch system just sound so much better with my pioneer SS receiver.

[Cody_Mack]

All this stuff sounds fantastic, very smooth with real low bass... My world is upside down!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Paul, I got your attention and got you thinking of different topologies - good thing!

Paul, you are thinking of selling your SET - bad thing!

There are many options for you to experiement with. Three on the top of the list that have already been mentioned here:

1. drive La Scala with high quality SS amps

2. drive the mid and highs with SET and and bass with SS

3. drive La Scala with SET and add a high quality sub (pair)

I think I would first try adding a sub to fill in where the La Scala drops off. Maybe you could borrow one to see what you think before buying one. From what I heard that night, I can't imagine any amp producing the bass that I expect to hear from a speaker that large. They are known to be bass-shy, but to what extent? Yours are the only La Scalas I have heard, so I cannot comment any further. I guess I need to hear what the SS amp is doing for them. Is there really that much more dramatic bass, or is it only more dramatic to what Paul expects to hear? Remember that night you were saying, "that is all the bass I ever need to hear". Well, you have obviously reconsidered that statement and are experimenting. Just don't jump to conclusions.

La Scala veterans, how do you achive the best bass from your system?

Rick