Fortes and sourround system?

[wallflower]

I have a friend that's contemplating putting together a surround system anchored by Fortes. Without breaking the bank, what would you all recommend for a complementary center channel, rears and sub-woofer? Also, it would be preferable if the center and rears were as physically small as possible.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Ideas?

Thanks,

Jeff

[papashawn]

I have a 5 channel setup with Forte II's for the mains, an Academy for the center and two KG2.5's for surrounds. As far as keeping the center and surrounds as small as possible, this is a great way to go, but the Academy can be difficult to find and can also be expensive. For example, I paid $400 for my pair of Forte II's and I also paid $400 for my Academy. They sound fantastic together. I got the KG2.5's on Audiogon for $200 I believe. Not a bad deal. They're 19" tall and have a 9" square footprint, not too large. I don't have a sub in my setup, but I would imagine a nice used RSW-12 or RSW-15 would go well in that system.

[dtel's wife]

papashawn's idea may be your best bet. I can't help you out with this one because we have an all forte IIs and forte set up, with a DIY sub that is about 3' x 3' x'3, actually a little larger but close.

[Reid]

Nice to have another Forte owner on the forum. I have Forte I's as my main L/R speakers with a KV3 for center. Voice, to me, is pretty close and sounds very good. I have Kg 1.5 for surrounds which also work very well. My sub is a KSW200 I think. This sub will be replace next year with a HSU or SVS model. Enjoy[]

[erdric]

I had the KV-3 as a center for a while and really liked it.  I eventually upgraded to an Academy and think it's a better match to my Forte II's.  I'm not sure if the difference in quality is worth the price, though.  IIRC I paid around $540 for my Academy.  The KV-3 was much less.

As for the rears, I currently have RS-3's but am considering going to either the KG-2.5's or KG-3's.  The 2.2 or 2.5's are nice and small and IMO would be a good choice.

[masterxela]

you should buy my flawless kv-3. 125 plus shipping from 63367

[boomac]

Forte IIs with an Academy provide a very special combination. Prior to my current Cornwall set-up I used my Forte IIs, Academy, RSW 10 and either Heresys, KG 2.5s or KG1.5s as surrounds. Just make sure the Forte IIs can be positioned properly and you will really enjoy it.

[popbumper]

Personally, I have had all the the following scenarios:

1) Forte L&R, no center, KG2 surround

2) Forte L&R, Academy center, Forte surrounds, KG2 rears

3) Forte L&R, Forte center, Forte surrounds, KG2 rears

4) Cornwall L&R, Forte center, Forte surrounds, KG2 rears

5) Hybrid CornForte's (K33 woofer with Forte horns in a Corn cabinet), Forte center, Forte surrounds, KG2 rears

I would rate the combinations in this order, with the current (#5) setup as being my favorite. Each was a progression towards a better sound. The CornForte is an unusual beast, but combines the best tenets of two speakers.

For your purposes, find another Academy or Forte. These are by far the best match for your needs.

Chris

[wallflower]

Because of some issues with the room it's necessary to use some flush mounted Klipsch for the rears. Would 94dB rears work o.k. with the 96dB Fortes and Academys?

[Frzninvt]

It's not the db's that need matching that can be compensated for with the channel levels on the A/V receiver or A/V Pre/Pro it is the timbre of the speakers that need to be matched. Any current offerings will not match the tone of the Forte's. If anything use some KG .5's with the wall mountable brackets in leiu of the in-walls your ears will thank you for it.

[boomac]

Frzin and I sort of disagree on the importance of this timbre issue. Before you screw around with mounting brackets and then the cumbersome space issues (associated with bigger boxes) I would, at least, audition several of the new Klipsch surround products. They disperse the sound extremely well and if your ears are so good that you can recognize (and are bothered by) any miss-match of timbre, (associated with surround speakers) then you probably wont be satisfied with any of the speakers you are talking about anyway.

In my opinion, timbre across the front is what is important and although Ive listened to set-ups with other center speakers, (most actually performed quite well) an Academy is the best option there.

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[merkin]

I agree with Boomac. The three across the front are the most important. I started with 2 forte ii's and an academy for center, I then added a K-stack to the academy. I then went with 3 forte ii's across the front. a forte ii will blow away an academy when it is being paired with forte ii's. If you have the space go for three identical across the front. The sound is seemless when it pans from left to right. Also most of your sound comes from the center speaker especially watching TV, sports, and dialog. I now have 5 forte ii's and 2 quartets, the quartets are used for rear centers. I don't think the surround and rear centers are used to their fullest potential, but I had the room and it does sound great.

[boomac]

The combination of 3 Forte IIs up front and two Quartets for rear or side surrounds has got to be a winner. I think Frzin would agree that you could hardly attain a better timbre match than that. Forte IIs and Quartets match up perfectly. At one time I had 4 Forte IIs and a pair of Quartets but I never got around to setting it up for HT. I think the problem was with an unshielded Forte II or Quartet interfering with the monitor. Anyway, wall positioning can be tricky with all the passive radiators but with the right space this set-up would be a killer! <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[Frzninvt]

Personally, it does not matter to me what other folks are doing but the fact remains that regardless of personal opinion the rear speakers do contribute to the overall soundstage, imaging, and timbre' of the entire system. You can try and deny it to justify your speaker choices but you are fooling no one but yourself. Here is a quote from a knowledgeable HT website:

"The rear surround speakers are a matched set using the same drivers as the other speakers being used in this set-up, remember 5 cheap matched speakers will sound better when used for Home Theater than whatever set of good speakers you can throw together. Timbre matching is of utmost importance in Home Theater because the sound moves forward and backward in the soundfield if you use matching drivers the sound won't change as it moves around in the soundfield but use mismatched drivers and the sound will take on the different characteristics of either speaker as it moves which will make the sound appear shallow or un-natural to the listener."

Compromise all you like but a correctly matched system will ALWAYS sound better than a mismatched one and those are just the cold hard facts. I will never, ever replace my rear Klipschorn's and Cornwall rear effects/centers for mismatched in-walls or dipole speakers sorry.

[boomac]

The five cheap speaker quote says a lot and indicates a sales pitch to me! Are you trying to tell us that a completely matched (five exact speakers) Sony boxed surround system will sound better than three Cornwalls and two KS -525s? You sayin I should dump my set-up and replace it with five Radio Shack Specials?

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Look, a Klipschorn sounds different than a <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Cornwall and a Cornwallsounds different than a Forte II. Most, but not all, people could tell the difference. In an HT set-up, most people, again not all, would have difficulty telling the difference between (3) Forte IIs and (2) Forte IIs and an Academy. Now thats a cold hard fact! Im also curious to know if that knowledgeable HT website offers a discussion on the impact space has on the overall sound experience. Is timbre altered after sound waves go bouncing around off different objects of density? Do those rear effects sound the same to people sitting three feet apart?

Now Frezin dont get me wrong here. If you have the space and funds to make use of big Heritage speakers then thats great. But to jam all that in to a less than adequate space for the sake of timber match seems ridicules. I think Indy has a bunch of La Scalas in his set-up but I recall he also may be using a pair of KS-525s. Perhaps we can get him to jump in here. I know his entire system is top shelf and hes had a lot of people experience it. He should have some good feed back!

[oldtimer]

I have used Forte II's with fairly decent other brand surrounds first in phantom mode, then with an Academy center, and then with Forte II surrounds. The difference is night and day having the Forte II's as surrounds compared to before. They are crammed into what might be considered too small of a space, depending on how the room is arranged. I have to agree for the most part with Frzn on this issue. It's not so much the issue of timbre being affected by objects and/or seating position. The effects of those problems would be related to time delay and spl balance, not timbre.

[boomac]

From a knowledgeable source on this Forum:

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It takes about 10 feet for the sound from each driver in the heresy to converge into a single coherent wavefront. A wide dispersion speaker is going to have much greater intelligibility in the near field and a more cohesive sound. It is absolutely a decision that must be made based on the acoustical situation of the room in question.

Also, mounting a speaker in a different position in the room automatically changes the timbre - by a huge magnitude actually. So any arguments of perfect timbre matching - especially for a surround speaker mounted up high - are theoretical at best. In other words, I think many would be surprised by how well the Ultra2 series surrounds mate with Heritage up front...

[oldtimer]

Maybe we should start with agreeing on the definition of timbre. To me, it means that the trumpet from the front array sounds like the trumpet from the rear array. Many speakers that are mis-matched will make it sound like either two different trumpets (instrument used for example, you might substitute the generic "sound") or at least the same trumpet on two different recordings. Here might be a start for coming to terms:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbre

I would expect speakers using horns would sound less displeasing when matched than fronts using horns and rears that do not.

[boomac]

Why would I want to hear the sound of a trumpet, (especially the same trumpet) from forward and behind? If I wanted to hear anything from the side or rear it would be crowd noise and that would sound best dispersed. If youre talking about hearing the trumpet sound after bouncing off the rear and side walls then that would sound best dispersed as well. Have you ever heard (on two channel) a high hat on one speaker, a kick drum on the other and a guitar in between? It might be ok if its background music but if youre sitting there listening and feeling the band its annoying as heck. Ain't no drummer with legs that long! If its classical orchestra, I want to hear the violins to my left and the violas to my right.

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Give me an example of where you have actually noticed a timbre miss-match. You know, a specific part of a DVD. Ill lug a couple Cornwalls back in the HT room and give it a go. Don't make something up tho'! Cornwalls are heavy and pain in the butt to move.[]

[oldtimer]

Well it's been a while, and I can't give you a specific example. I can say that using any example I could tell a vast difference between a non matching center and the academy. But that's not what we are talking about here right? We are discussing matching attributes of surround speakers i believe. So, with that in mind, with movies a perfect match is not as critical as a good match. Yet even your own example of the quote from a knowledgeable member of the forum is talking about speakers of not only similar design but the same brand. I still notice and prefer the complete cohesiveness of matching speakers all around for any application. also remember the trumpet was just a word for sound as I explained before, and when discussing such things as dvd-audio, yes, I would want the same trumpet sound or at least the illusion of the same trumpet from anywhere the mix. For an example, at the end of karn Evil 9 from the dvd-audio of ELP's Brain Salad Surgery, I prefer the sound to be the same as the synthesizer loop runs around and around the room. Anything less would be distracting.

As for your specific question at the beginning of your post, I would want to hear a trumpet sound just as clear from the back if say the scene were at a battlefield and the trumpet is behind me, or if the scene were a bar with the band behind. Then say the scene pans around and the band is in front. To me, I want the same sound both ways so it still seems as if i am in the same room hearing the same band. Sorry for the hypotheticals, but the theory is my preference based on experience with non-matching systems.