As of December 2007 where are Klipsch speakers manufactured?

[jt1stcav]

I could be wrong, but I think even my made-in-Hope Reference RB-75s have Chinese made woofers! They may very well be designed by Klipsch engineers in the Hope facility, but they are outsourced and manufactured abroad (unlike the drivers and woofers in the '79 Cornwalls I had which as far as I know were 100% American made)!

[ben.]

Ok......I'm confused. Several times in this thread there has been the comment that (in so many words) the product has to be made overseas to stay price competitive and that's because of the lower labor cost in where ever versus the higher labor costs of manufacturing here in the US.

Personally, I'm not sure I buy into that. Sure, the Honda's and Toyota's and whatever that are made here are a bit more expensive than the KIA's and Hyundai's made in China & Korea. However, the price difference has more to do with Government subsidies and our Imperial Federal Goverment's tax structure than with how much a factory worker earns.

Here's a data point for you folks and I stand by this figure because any manufacturing cost accountant will agree with it. The direct labor cost for a typically manufactured item is in the range of 4% to 11% of the product. For car companies, that figure hovers around the 4% mark. IOW, 95% of the production cost of a car is attributed to purchased materials and overhead.

My point here is that direct labor has very little to do with the cost of a product. The big savings are realized in decreasing the purchased material costs. And because of this, I contend that this country CAN compete price-wise if it weren't for the tax structure in this country that indirectly REWARDS U.S. corporations for locating plants outside the U.S. Sadly, we lose sight of the real culprit and tend to focus on the "bad guy" coporation for taking U.S. jobs and giving them away to other countries.

Tom

Cars may a bad choice to use an example of this, though are useful as a case in point. When you get into lower priced commodities, the cost of labor factors in much more heavily.

[scott0527]

Ok......I'm confused. Several times in this thread there has been the comment that (in so many words) the product has to be made overseas to stay price competitive and that's because of the lower labor cost in where ever versus the higher labor costs of manufacturing here in the US.

Personally, I'm not sure I buy into that. Sure, the Honda's and Toyota's and whatever that are made here are a bit more expensive than the KIA's and Hyundai's made in China & Korea. However, the price difference has more to do with Government subsidies and our Imperial Federal Goverment's tax structure than with how much a factory worker earns.

Here's a data point for you folks and I stand by this figure because any manufacturing cost accountant will agree with it. The direct labor cost for a typically manufactured item is in the range of 4% to 11% of the product. For car companies, that figure hovers around the 4% mark. IOW, 95% of the production cost of a car is attributed to purchased materials and overhead.

My point here is that direct labor has very little to do with the cost of a product. The big savings are realized in decreasing the purchased material costs. And because of this, I contend that this country CAN compete price-wise if it weren't for the tax structure in this country that indirectly REWARDS U.S. corporations for locating plants outside the U.S. Sadly, we lose sight of the real culprit and tend to focus on the "bad guy" coporation for taking U.S. jobs and giving them away to other countries.

Tom

Direct labor does average around 5% to 11%. However there is indirect labor that averages around 25% to 40%. Indirect labor includes, breaks, lunch time, paid holidays, paid vacation. Also any shop floor supervisors that don't work directly on any one product are indirect labor.

[Travis In Austin]

In terms the cost of labor, percentage of cost, etc. It is really simple math. The average wage for labor in China is 65 cents per hour, the average in the U.S. is $22.00 per hour.

Travis

[DrWho]

Just something I've often thought about...

Let's just pretend that everything was American made and we were our own little island. What happens to the cost of goods as compared to the relative wages of the bottom of the line employees? No matter the angle I look at it, it just ends up redefining the salary that defines poverty.

And still no answer on what constitutes an acceptable exec salary?

[DrWho]

It has nothing to do with the current model...it's human nature. Just compare "American poverty" to anywhere else in the world...

[Islander]

Human nature? Given a choice of doing good or evil, there will always be a few people who will choose evil, usually some sort of selfishness. That's no reason to claim all humans are flawed and little can be expected from them. Society has evolved from subsistence struggling and is getting better all the time, in quality of life and in quality of ethics, but the sinners hit the news more often than the saints. That's a good thing; it means the sinners are the exceptions.

The future looks good to me, but as William Gibson said, "The future is already here. It's just not widely distributed yet."

[pauln]

Having analysed systems and technology professionally for many years I can add something to the list of disparities; in the US and most Western countries the use of software is licensed. Big companies use a tremendous amount of extremely expensive software to not only design and engineer products, but also to control manufacturing, accounting, payroll, product distribution logistics, plant equipment asset management, plant maintenance, and many other functions. This is a huge cost and part of the overall cost of doing business.

China generally has not accepted the "intellectual property" concept of paying license and support fees for software; estimates report that most of it is pirated. This saves them costs and is one of the global relationship issues they will need to resolve in the future to be a world class country - which they ardently desire. When and if they resolve to address this, along with the many labor practices, workplace conditions, liability adoption, and other issues mentioned above, their costs will begin to come up to par with those of the Western manufacturers.

Some will think, "Great, let's hope they get there soon!"

Unless the US corrects it's educational system and get us out of 30th place, China may get there all too soon.

[fini]

China seems to also have a pretty big stockpile of lead...

[anarchist]

If manufacturers consider "made in China" as a product attribute, then proudly provide consumers with a convenient web source for that information.

Made is inaccurate if we consider all the factors which go into producing a product. If we can mandate a huge warning label on a pack of cigarettes, we should be able to get an accurate statement or "call out" on products.

I suggest "This product includes the labor of an oppressed people living under communist rule who are paid pennies on the dollar and whose rulers make millions to ensure they retain dominion over your fellow man."

[mfk]

Ya think...my cat licked one of my RF-52's...he's not been well since

[ThomasB]

1/ I've always made a strong effort to buy made in USA although my budget is not unlimited. I do prefer the quality that made in USA means.

2/ Companies that outsource to China and elsewhere do it only because it means more profits, not more quality.

3/ When it comes to CEO compensation the shareholders, not the BOD, should have the final vote/say in the matter as they are the ultimate owners.

4/ I am currently looking at the RF-83s and the associated Home Theater package primarily because they are made in America, not because they are Klipsch. If this speaker grouping is not made in USA, please let me know. I have no desire to sacrifice either my lifestyle nor my families so that that we can send US Dollars to subsidize China.

Thank you

[Zen Traveler]

... I am currently looking at the RF-83s and the associated Home Theater package primarily because they are made in America, not because they are Klipsch. If this speaker grouping is not made in USA, please let me know. I have no desire to sacrifice either my lifestyle nor my families so that that we can send US Dollars to subsidize China.

Good News! [] If you purchase the RF-83 and RC-64 you won't be putting your lifestyle or conscience in jeopardy. Welcome to the forum. :-)

[mfk]

Having analysed systems and technology professionally for many years I can add something to the list of disparities; in the US and most Western countries the use of software is licensed. Big companies use a tremendous amount of extremely expensive software to not only design and engineer products, but also to control manufacturing, accounting, payroll, product distribution logistics, plant equipment asset management, plant maintenance, and many other functions. This is a huge cost and part of the overall cost of doing business.

China generally has not accepted the "intellectual property" concept of paying license and support fees for software; estimates report that most of it is pirated. This saves them costs and is one of the global relationship issues they will need to resolve in the future to be a world class country - which they ardently desire. When and if they resolve to address this, along with the many labor practices, workplace conditions, liability adoption, and other issues mentioned above, their costs will begin to come up to par with those of the Western manufacturers.

Some will think, "Great, let's hope they get there soon!"

Unless the US corrects it's educational system and get us out of 30th place, China may get there all too soon.

Having analysed systems and technology professionally for many years I can add something to the list of disparities; in the US and most Western countries the use of software is licensed. Big companies use a tremendous amount of extremely expensive software to not only design and engineer products, but also to control manufacturing, accounting, payroll, product distribution logistics, plant equipment asset management, plant maintenance, and many other functions. This is a huge cost and part of the overall cost of doing business.

China generally has not accepted the "intellectual property" concept of paying license and support fees for software; estimates report that most of it is pirated. This saves them costs and is one of the global relationship issues they will need to resolve in the future to be a world class country - which they ardently desire. When and if they resolve to address this, along with the many labor practices, workplace conditions, liability adoption, and other issues mentioned above, their costs will begin to come up to par with those of the Western manufacturers.

Some will think, "Great, let's hope they get there soon!"

Unless the US corrects it's educational system and get us out of 30th place, China may get there all too soon.

Sad but true, and with the rise of open source, the development game is now just one of numbers, how many developers can you get per project, that with US companies reluctant to honor GPL agreements and we have a real problem. Bangalore, China and Eastern Europe are banging at our door, these areas have great developers. IMI took the avionics contract for the F-22 and what do have outside of a growing gap between our dumb and smart people.

True, China is a nation of thieves in that they don't recognize internalional patent law, so the thing would be to keep state of the art stuff out of their hands. China has been the sleeping giant, but when the labor and production costs (fuel, etc) grow to burdensome, they will farm out to the Vietnamese, really the southern tip of China.

[Zen Traveler]

...When it comes to CEO compensation the shareholders, not the BOD, should have the final vote/say in the matter as they are the ultimate owners.

On a side note, when the Board of Directors is made up of majority (i.e., large) stockholders and their allies, the majority of people owning shares usually doesn't compare to the voting influence that the board and CEO make up. The game on Wall Street is too pick the winning team and pull out before something you don't know happens. []

;-)

[ThomasB]

Sad but true, and with the rise of open source, the development game is now just one of numbers, how many developers can you get per project, that with US companies reluctant to honor GPL agreements and we have a real problem. Bangalore, China and Eastern Europe are banging at our door, these areas have great developers. IMI took the avionics contract for the F-22 and what do have outside of a growing gap between our dumb and smart people.

True, China is a nation of thieves in that they don't recognize internalional patent law, so the thing would be to keep state of the art stuff out of their hands. China has been the sleeping giant, but when the labor and production costs (fuel, etc) grow to burdensome, they will farm out to the Vietnamese, really the southern tip of China.

An ounce of common sense should tell us that the political leaders of either of our political parties are not working for the greater good of the USA. Thirty+ years of increasing trade deficits and increased outsourcing states the obvious. They are working for multi-national corporate interests. Furthermore how could any patriotic DOD official justify giving the contract for our F-22 avionics to the Israelis? Every cent of taxpayer money spent on our military should be plowed back into the USA economy to US industries with US workers. this should be done based upon economic common sense and for security purposes. I see our our country being dumbed down by the media and by stupid policies (such as giving F-22 avionics to IMI) that leave us with less to spend on the education of our USA youth.

The Chinese and others are going to eat our lunch within a generation because they encourage hard work and education instead of having their youth fritter away their spare time on foolishness such as gaming and reality TV. The media in this country works hard at increasing its own profits while undercutting the country.

[Marvel]

The Chinese and others are going to eat our lunch within a generation because they encourage hard work and education instead of having their youth fritter away their spare time on foolishness such as gaming and reality TV. The media in this country works hard at increasing its own profits while undercutting the country.

They may encourage it, but the youth of China are, in actuality, not much different than the youth of the U.S. I saw this first hand when I visited my gf, who teaches English in three different Chinese colleges (she is a Filipina). Many of her students are lazy, don't study, don't do their homework. A majority of students? That would be hard to tell, but they have so many it doesn't matter.

It would be interesting to know how many are the same in India, which seems to crank out mathmaticians and programmers all day long.