P39 or Jubilee's---------HELP!!!!

[Daddy Dee]

Smilin,

I'm glad you are going to have a chance to hear the P39 before deciding. That is a good idea.

The Jubilee, of course, has that Heritage sound. The Palladium will sound different. Of course, whether "different" is "better" is completely subjective.

Will the P39 sound "better" well for twice the price it should. It is also fairly described as a work of art, a real beauty.

One consideration of course, is appearance.

Well, I'm looking forward to hearing your take on the sound. Have fun in the process!

[Deang]

The Jubilee, of course, has that Heritage sound.

No it doesn't! The "Heritage sound" is a honky colored midrange and a raspy tweeter!

[Deang]

"...many have listened to amps that you would consider acceptable and felt that the advantages offered by the DSP outweighed the crappiness of their amplification."

Now that's funny. Truthfully, if I thought the amplification was crappy it would be gone! I think people often hear what they're told to hear, what they think they should hear, or what they want to hear. I definitely think some don't like what they think they shouldn't like!

[jwc]

The Jubilee, of course, has that Heritage sound.

No it doesn't! The "Heritage sound" is a honky colored midrange and a raspy tweeter!

I might need to trade in my La Scala II's []

At least my wife thinks they look good.

jc

[DrWho]

Heck, even the folded horn is a compromise (that's why it's folded:).

Good point!

Stupid audiophiles always wanting speakers to be small and cute []

[mikebse2a3]

Just to be clear, my comments are about the RELATIVE merits of Jub and P-39 (in a speculative fashion), ok? As it is, I can't find anyone who has heard them both. Have you? Seems the few Klipsch folk who have aren't talking!

Of course I've not heard them Mark. My comments here have been to point out that contrary to marketing hype what has always been put fourth by Klipsch the Company(and PWK) up untill this point in time has preached the superiority of Horn Loading with properly designed fully horn loaded system being the superior systems due to distortion factors among other things with ultimate loudness ability being a by product of the proper design of the system.

I hate that this even has to become somewhat of a P39 versus Jubilee discussion but the reality is by making some of the comments that have hit the press Klipsch is creating some confusion about what it ultimately believes in as a company if it really intended to call the Palladium the ultimate Klipsch Speaker and I believe price and exotic materials is only a part of the total design which should start with a solid base in physics.

Isn't the size of the K402 a function of the AREA in which it seeks to retain uniform coverage? When comparing a living room to a theater then, the K402 is obviously required in the theater, but is it actually required in a home where the coverage needs to be but a few feet? Does your comment imply that in a home setting the P39 horns would be insufficient relative to "directivity and response at lower frequencies?" I noticed all of the Cinema speakers have very large horns and none of the home speakers do. Isn't this actually related to the coverage area required in a huge cimena audiortium?

NO!

The size of the K402 is a function of controlling it's designed Horiz/Vert polar angels over it's intended frequency bandwidth. This has real world benefits in all size rooms as well as integrating the horn with the LF Horn. Small rooms will benefit from this feature tremendousley! It prevents the uneven splashing of sound around the room depending on frequency and also causing very uneven coloration and clarity issues.

Well, an amp that is not even designed for home audio really does need to create some credentials somehow, doesn't it? When I went to the Crown site, "sound quality" was about #6 on their own stated list of priorities. Ok, well, that's just one reference point. I am in contact (directly) with hundreds of audiophiles who have spent considerable time, effort and money over a long period of time trying to seek out the best "sounding" gear. They have all kinds of speakers and musical listening tastes and source materials. Some of them have had easily 20 or thirty ampliifers in their long quest. Money and availablility seem to be no objection. So oddly, only 2 of these people I know of are using Crown amps, and both are using Klipsch speakers and are on this bulletin board. That's not saying much out of HUNDREDS of people I talk with over the past couple years. But it gets worse - -some people I have contact with actually HAVE TRIED Crown and various other PA amps and have spoken nothing but scathing dirt about their sound. I also read an awful lot of audio magazines and I find nearly zero fans of the Big Crown PA amps there either. But, mostly, I rely upon what I have heard myself. I have heard
"audio systems in the home" using Crown amps and I thought they were pure ear-bleeders. And, when I go out and hear music being played, I always pay attention to the PA system. Crown amps are everywhere in these music venues and generally coupled with enormous horn systems. There's nothing I hear there that would attract me to that sound. So, of course I might hear one and think it was the greatest amp I have ever heard. But, the odds of that are about the same as hearing a $100 Bose speaker and saying the same thing. If it weren't for the DSPs, is this the amp everyone would use?

Well I've been in this hobby for over 35 years and what I have observed is many so called audophiles would rather have a magazine or someone tell them what is good instead of trusting there own ability to eventually learn for themselves what is good! What you will also notice just as you mentioned is they will have owned many different pieces of equipment trying to fix their sound but they never seem to be able to do that for any long period of time. Could it be they are looking in the wrong places to fix things(like Equipment instead of room and speaker issues being the overwhelming problems)

Mark there really isn't anything fundamentally new in Tube Amp designs and there aren't going to be so once someone aquires a basic good design he would best be served looking into his room or better speakers but it is much easier and less challenges to trade equipment than to fix the weak links in the chain.

Give me a break on PA Venues even your tube amps wouldn't sound good in most of these situations now would they? Why? Because most venues have serious acoustical challenges that has little to do with the amplification being used.

Remember what you hear when you listen to a reproduction system is a combination of direct and indirect sound so you never hear a speaker system/amps/etc... without the sound being filtered by the listening enviroment. In other words only a direct comparison under identical conditions would be valid and only under those particular conditions (like room size/shape for example)

Bottom Line would you want your current products being judged without someone listening to them even if they had heard some of your earlier designs? The Crowns that people are using now should be heard with an open mind!

Well, I don't know - - do I need someone's permission here to "spread" an opinion? Yours? Klipsch? If I read the Director of Product Planning for the company, his "opinion" was really clear as a bell, and it seems to not be what your is. To repeat, I'd love to hear them both. And if it is with a Crown portable PA amp, that's fine too.

No Mark! Your perfectly free to spread anything you want but it is your responsibility to be as accurate as you can possibly be (which you aren't since you have heard none of what you are speculating on and your understanding of horn design is incomplete at best).

It's also others responsibility to reach their own opinions hopefully based on valid experiences!

mike tn[]

[Deang]

The Jubilee, of course, has that Heritage sound.

No it doesn't! The "Heritage sound" is a honky colored midrange and a raspy tweeter!

I might need to trade in my La Scala II's

At least my wife thinks they look good.

jc

Aw man, I forgot the "[][]" Now I'm going to get all kinds of crap from the Heritage guys.[]

[DrWho]

1. Angles? Explain how that's different than what I said. Wider angle just means covers more "area" both horizontally and vertically. Not that many people have stadium seating at home. A few, not many though.

You don't understand the difference between angles and area? Wow.

You still didn't answer the question "Is 90x60 acceptable for the home?" Or do you want to continue spewing crap derived from generalizations?

Here's what I think: I think the Klipsch engineers have been delivering 'horns for the home' without sacrificing "low frequency control" and those horns look one heck of a lot smaller than that behemoth on the Jub. If they have not been doing that, then I guess the've been fibbing?

You think wrong. What makes you think that means they're lying?

Even the now famous pic of PWK had him standing along side a small wooden horn. Now, would he even suggest such a thing for the home if it was "losing low frequency control" in a living room? I think not.

You think wrong again. That horn squishes high frequency polars and loses control over the low frequencies.

[mikebse2a3]

Good gravy man, if everyone had to "hear" exactly the rig someone else is hearing before having an opinion, there would be no forum! No one's life is in the balance here, is it?

Good Grief Mark! read what you just wrote again.

What good is a forum Mark if all it is is based on opinion of equipment, speakers, acoustics, etc.... that has not been heard by the individuals?

I'm ok with anyone offering an opinion Mark but the one's with real value to me are based on experience and knowledge of the subject at hand.

You have shown a closed mind toward the Crowns, Opinions of the jubs based on a weak knowledge of Horn Design and even though people who actually own or heard them tell you differently you basically call into question their equipment/systems or more when many of them have had excellent equipment and systems in the past?

mike tn[]

[bodcaw boy]

Heck, even the folded horn is a compromise (that's why it's folded:).

Good point!

Stupid audiophiles always wanting speakers to be small and cute

grasshopper,

it isn't stupid audiophiles that are the problem; it's the stupid "enlightened, my opinion is fact, and don't bother me with the facts cause i got my mind made up, you say black, i say white" audiophiles that are the problem (kinda of like an "audiophart").......[8-|]

besides i like coyotee-o's new word, I IS A AUDIOPUNK!![8o|]

in Christ, because of God's grace,

roy

[mikebse2a3]

"Bottom Line would you want your current products being judged without someone listening to them even if they had heard some of your earlier designs? The Crowns that people are using now should be heard with an open mind!"

--------------

Are you kiddin' me? People do it all the time. Here and everywhere else too.

Just because people do it all the time doesn't make it OK Mark!

mike tn[]

[bodcaw boy]

I need to come home, and stay....already. The real question now is, which sound better? HELP

My b-day is 1-2, and I needs to make a decision real soon

steeeeeeeeeve,

i returned your caaaaaaaaaaaall.

in Christ, because of God's grace,

roy

[Coytee]

Those who are so palpably derisive of "audiophiles" should read Coytees hilarious post on his Art box preamp over in Technical. If ever there was an argument for why most of the world buys Bose speakers with $99 receivers to go with their pizza and beer, well there it is.

Some of my equipment uses:

Peach/cd/McIntosh MC30's & Khorns (with passives) sounded fantastic

Peach/cd/Transcendent SE-OTL & Khorns (with passives), sounded fantastic (and to me, better than the MC-30's)

Peach/cd/McIntosh MC-2102 & Khorns (with passives), sounded fantastic

Peach/cd/McIntosh MC-2102, dbx monster PA amp (BX3), Jubilees (with active), sounded fantastic

Peach/cd/Crown K2 monster PA amp, McIntosh MC-2102, Jubilees (with active), sounded fantastic

Peach/cd/McIntosh Mc-2102, dbx monster PA amp (BX1), Jubilees (with active), sounded fantastic

Peach/cd/dbx monster PA amp in 4 channel (bx3), Jubilees (with active), sounded fantastic

Now, I toss OUT the Peach

Art "Cleanbox" rca/xlr converter/cd/dbx monster PA amp in 4 channel (bx3), Jubilees (with active), sounded fantastic

So, tonight, I've got my $1,000 plus Peach sitting idle, my $4,000 plus 2102 sitting idle and I'm using a $50 "cleanbox" with a $500 monster PA amp and you know what?

yep... I'm sitting back with lots of potential cash to order beer & pizza!!

Seems I've been using some decent stuff in which to make some reasonable opinions 'eh'? (to quote Buckster)

Now that I've had those in my system for a couple years and I toss them out for this cheapo setup and don't notice any clearly discernable differences... I guess I must have lead ears.

And that's ok by me [] honestly, it is!!

yep... I'm happy being an audiopunk

How fortunate I am to be able to be happy powering my Jubilees with $1,000 worth of backup equipment instead of having to use $10,000 of backup equipment!

[Y]

[Deang]

You don't hear a difference because the EV unit is making everything sound the same.

[IB Slammin]

The Jubilee, of course, has that Heritage sound.

No it doesn't! The "Heritage sound" is a honky colored midrange and a raspy tweeter!

Deano,

Good point. How many think that Jubilee has that Heritage sound? I for one, think that it does not.

..........The "Heritage sound" is a honky colored midrange and a raspy tweeter!........ However, I will not go there!

tc

[mikebse2a3]

You don't hear a difference because the EV unit is making everything sound the same.

More likely it's because Richard's style of listening isn't from the sweet spot were most of these differences would be perceived.

Dean you made comments to me about the differences you heard after hearing the EV active while using different sources and amps were involved so I don't understand how you can make a comment now about it masking such changes.

mike tn[]

[Deang]

I was kidding!

I'm sure what you're saying has a lot to do with it. Holding a slice of pizza and glass of beer up in front of your face will also compound the problem. Honestly, I think source material plays a big role too. I don't know about Richard, but I don't listen to Jazz, Classical, or female vocalists -- I do Rock-n-Roll and DVD movies and concerts. I truly believe my source material minimizes the differences between gear (to a point).

[Coytee]

What was funny (in a good way) was your disdain and bewilderment at why anyone would chain themselves to a chair and actually SIT AND LISTEN to all the nuances, like air and all that other dumb stuff!

Bewilderment yes

Disdain? I don't know that I ever said nor even suggested that? (if what ever I said DID infer that, then I apologize for the faux pas but you DO have me on the bewildered part!)

If a cymbol that was recorded in a booth/stage miles away from me, was recorded using XYZ equipment, compressed by the engineers, tweeked by the engineers, has a twang instead of a twing, how the heck am I going to know how the cymbol in the ROOM sounded when it was struck and recorded? To sit there and 'fret' (for lack of better word) over that just can't be done by me.

Odds are no matter WHAT kind of system anyone has, they'll never know how it sounds compared to the real one that they are listening to a facsimile of, no?? Meaning, no matter what you're listening to you will never know if the sound in your room exactly matches the sound when it was recorded. I'd even be willing to bet that most of us would agree that the sound that was created (prior to recording) is probably not the EXACT sound that is on our LP, CD anyway (because of the entire recording process), no?

So, if what I am listening to will NEVER have the exact "twing" or "twang" that existed when the cymbol was struck, why would I want to sit there and fret over the small differences that might not even exist? And if they DO (differences) exist, as they likely to, isn't it fair that your more perfect reproduction system (we'll call it wine & cheese) is only reproducing what the engineer "produced" as opposed to maybe 'exactly' what he heard? (honest question since I'm dumb on recording) so, which is more "real"?? that which he heard or that which he produced?

I just don't find it in me to sit there and fret that my cymbol sounds did a twing instead of a twang. They sound like cymbols to me and are (probably) 99% "close enough" and I get to keep some extra cash in my pockets!

For me, that's a good thing!

[8]

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I remember when K Horns were the uncontested king of the hill (if you had corners) and everyone just fought about the La Scala's bass response, SS vs tubes and SET vs push pull, CD vs LP. Ah the good ole' days when we also didn't get along...

I have to say that I do love to listen to music. I did not listen for months as I was to stressed out (I specialize in real estate law - rough market). I have been listening lately and really relaxing, as I am right now (James Taylor is on). My wife will never understand, but I have done this my whole life.

This thread has been interesting, I need to stop by more often. I'd still like to hear a pair of the Palladiums. Will they be at CES?

[damonrpayne]

They will be empty cabinets at CES is my understanding.

I'm hoping to be demoing them in my house, however that is unlikely to occur in 2008