WHA WHA WHA WHAT ?!

[BigStewMan]

Here is an indisputable fact: Your liberty in the USA is INVERSELY proportional to the growth in the number of guns in circulation. Period. End of story. As the number of guns has risen, your actual liberty has fallen. So, whoopie doo, let's run out and get more guns!!

I have become abivelent about guns because the argument has turned out to be less than meaningless. The "great defenders of the Second Ammendment" - hollering and yelling for all their guns, just let the Bill of Rights slip right through their trigger fingers. Who the hell cares if you have a gun when living in a police state? You guys slay me - really. Talk about penny wise and pound foolish.

"Indisputable fact." "Period." "End of Story."

Why didn't you just make that your first post? You could have saved us from all of this reading.

[Jeff Matthews]

"Indisputable fact." "Period." "End of Story."

Why didn't you just make that your first post? You could have saved us from all of this reading.

Well, I'm glad to see someone agrees with me!

Now, that was a funny exchange!

Anyway, I fully understand. Mark, your point was that guns are inherently bad. You said something to the effect of who can't point to where guns have made things better.

Aside from the fact they are useful tools for hunting (not that hunting is a necessity anymore), I can assure you the convenient store clerk who used one to save himself from being killed during a robbery found his gun to be quite useful AND productive. So, here we are again - full circle.

[Jeff Matthews]

deleted.

[Guest srobak]

You know - before people go on an anti-gun tirade, they should look at some numbers. There are more deaths by drunk drivers in one state in a year than there is by firearms in the entire country in a year. No - that doesn't make either one any more acceptable, but I do think that folks should be putting just as much into an anti drunk-driving campaign as they do in an anti-firearms one.

Tell you what - I ever decide I want to go and wipe out a bunch of people because I am mad at the world or otherwise imbalanced - a car plowing down a sidewalk makes a FAR more efficient "bullet" than even an M60 with a 100 round belt. Drunk driving and vehicular manslaughter has become an accepted risk in driving, while firearms in general have become an atrocity (at least in the eyes of people who don't believe others can be responsible). That's not right.

I would deal with 3 to 5 drunk driving accidents a week, where as I would deal with 3 to 5 firearms incidents a YEAR - and not all necessarily involved a weapons discharge.

Think about where problems really are.

EDIT> And take the time to read the link I posted earlier. It is very educational.

[BigStewMan]

"Indisputable fact." "Period." "End of Story."

Why didn't you just make that your first post? You could have saved us from all of this reading.

Well, I'm glad to see someone agrees with me!

well, we do agree on one point--sarcasm. i love it. have to be careful in forums though. talking to people we don't know and don't know us, don't know when we're being sarcastic, when we're joking, when we're getting angry.

i don't have a problem with people owning guns. i don't think guns are the problem and i definately don't think that banning them will do much either. some of the most gun-related crime areas are paradoxically also "gun-free zones." The issue was, is, and always will be the character of people. the weapon isn't the cause--so it isn't the answer. and think about it, where do we stop? should we get rid of knives because of what happened on that bus in canada? baseball bats because that lady went off on that predator that moved in next door? if we ban every object that can be used as a weapon we'll have nothing left--not even our arms & legs. even then, take away wheelchairs because the amputee will wiggle his torso and crash his wheelchair into some unsuspecting soul. the problem is in the heart of the person, and God forbid we tell someone that they can't behave a certain way--we'll damage their self-esteem, we'll be labled racists, oppressors, etc...

[Guest srobak]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25966835/

Suspect in bus beheading appears in court

40-year-old man charged with second-degree murder

updated 2 hours, 42 minutes ago

TORONTO
- A 40-year-old man who witnesses said stabbed and beheaded his seat
mate on a Greyhound bus in Canada made his first court appearance
Friday, while police offered no motive for the savage attack against
the 22-year-old.

Vince Weiguang
Li, of Edmonton, Alberta, has been charged with second-degree murder
and walked into the courtroom Friday in Portage la Prairie, Manitoba,
with his head bowed.

He did not
reply when the judge asked him if he was going to get a lawyer, and
only nodded slightly when asked whether he was exercising his right not
to speak.

The prosecutor asked for a psychiatric
assessment, but the judge said he wanted to give Li a chance to meet
with his lawyer. Li's next court appearance is scheduled for Tuesday.

Authorities
have not released the victim's name but The Canadian Press said friends
had identified him as Tim McLean and said he was headed to Winnipeg
after working with the carnival in Edmonton.

Victim remembered
Friends started a Facebook group called "R.I.P. Tim" after news of the attack.

"He was a great person, he was kind,
thoughtful, and he did not deserve this. I feel for his parents and
sisters and his lil bro," Jossiee Kehleer wrote.

William
Caron, 23, said his brother was supposed to pick McLean up at the bus
depot in Winnipeg. When McLean did not show up, his brothers went to
McLean's father's house, where they learned of his murder, he said.

Caron said McLean was
quiet, though he liked to socialize with friends. He was small — about
5-foot-4 and 130 pounds — and tended stayed away from a fight, Caron
said.

"From what I
hear, this other guy is three times his size," Caron said. "All the
time I've known Tim, he's never been the type of guy to get into a
fight with. He always kept to himself when there's strangers around."

Witnesses
said the victim was stabbed dozens of times in the apparently
unprovoked attack Wednesday night aboard the bus as it traveled a
desolate stretch of the TransCanada Highway about 12 miles from Portage
La Prairie, Manitoba.

They
said the attacker then severed his seat mate's head, displayed it and
then began cutting up the body as passengers fled in horror.

Garnet
Caton, who was sitting just one seat in front of the two men, said he
did not hear the two speak to each other before the attack. Caton said
the victim appeared to be sleeping with headphones on when his seat
mate suddenly began stabbing him repeatedly.

"We
heard this bloodcurdling scream and turned around, and the guy was
standing up, stabbing this guy repeatedly, like 40 or 50 times," Caton
said from a hotel in Brandon, Manitoba, where he and other horrified
passengers were taken.

Caton
said the driver stopped the bus when he became aware of the attack and
passengers raced off. A short while later, Caton said he re-boarded
along with the bus driver and a trucker who had stopped to see what was
happening.

He said the suspect had the victim on the floor of the bus and "was cutting his head off" with a large hunting knife.

'No rage or anything'
"When
he was attacking him, he was calm ... like he was at the beach," said
Caton. "There was no rage or anything. He was just like a robot
stabbing the guy."

The
attacker turned toward them and the three men quickly left the bus,
blocking the door as the attacker slashed at them through an opening.
Caton said the driver disabled the vehicle after the attacker tried to
drive it away.

As
the three guarded the door with a crow bar and a hammer, the attacker
went back to the body and calmly came to the front of the bus to show
off the head, Caton said.

Cody
Olmstead, another passenger, said the man "dropped the head and went
back and started cutting the body." Olmstead said the man later use the
head to taunt police.

Olmstead said many were watching the movie "The Legend of Zorro" when the violence erupted.

Greyhound spokeswoman Abby Wambaugh said there were 37 passengers aboard.

The
victim had been on the Winnipeg, Manitoba-bound bus since Edmonton.
Caton said the attacker boarded the bus in Brandon, Manitoba, about 80
miles west of Portage La Prairie.

The
suspect had been on the bus about an hour and initially did not sit
near the victim, Caton said. But he changed seats after a rest stop.

"He sat in the front at first, everything was normal," Caton said.

"We
went to the next stop and he got off and had a smoke with another young
lady there. When he got on the bus again, he came to the back near
where I was sitting.

"He
put his bags in the overhead compartment. He didn't say a word to
anybody. He seemed totally normal," Caton said. "About a half an hour
later, we heard this bloodcurdling scream."

[Guest srobak]

some of the most gun-related crime areas are paradoxically also "gun-free zones."

This is also a fact, and is expanded upon in the link I provided earlier. The highest gun-related crime locations in the nation also have the toughest gun restrictions in the nation. DC, LA, NY, Chicago to name the worst. Detroit used to be in there, but in 2000 Michigan changed from a Can Issue state to a Shall Issue state and in the first year following issued over 35,000 ccw permits. Violent crime across the state plummeted 35% during that year, and has stayed down while more permits have been issued.

IL has no ccw provisions whatsoever, and in Chicago it is illegal to own or posses a handgun PERIOD, like Canada. Yet has been in the top 3 for gun related and violent crime and murders for the last 10+ years.

[stormin]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25966835/

Suspect in bus beheading appears in court

40-year-old man charged with second-degree murder

updated 2 hours, 42 minutes ago

TORONTO - A 40-year-old man who witnesses said stabbed and beheaded his seat mate on a Greyhound bus in Canada made his first court appearance Friday, while police offered no motive for the savage attack against the 22-year-old.

Vince Weiguang Li, of Edmonton, Alberta, has been charged with second-degree murder and walked into the courtroom Friday in Portage la Prairie, Manitoba, with his head bowed.

He did not reply when the judge asked him if he was going to get a lawyer, and only nodded slightly when asked whether he was exercising his right not to speak.

The prosecutor asked for a psychiatric assessment, but the judge said he wanted to give Li a chance to meet with his lawyer. Li's next court appearance is scheduled for Tuesday.

Authorities have not released the victim's name but The Canadian Press said friends had identified him as Tim McLean and said he was headed to Winnipeg after working with the carnival in Edmonton.

Victim remembered
Friends started a Facebook group called "R.I.P. Tim" after news of the attack.

"He was a great person, he was kind, thoughtful, and he did not deserve this. I feel for his parents and sisters and his lil bro," Jossiee Kehleer wrote.

William Caron, 23, said his brother was supposed to pick McLean up at the bus depot in Winnipeg. When McLean did not show up, his brothers went to McLean's father's house, where they learned of his murder, he said.

Caron said McLean was quiet, though he liked to socialize with friends. He was small — about 5-foot-4 and 130 pounds — and tended stayed away from a fight, Caron said.

"From what I hear, this other guy is three times his size," Caron said. "All the time I've known Tim, he's never been the type of guy to get into a fight with. He always kept to himself when there's strangers around."

Witnesses said the victim was stabbed dozens of times in the apparently unprovoked attack Wednesday night aboard the bus as it traveled a desolate stretch of the TransCanada Highway about 12 miles from Portage La Prairie, Manitoba.

They said the attacker then severed his seat mate's head, displayed it and then began cutting up the body as passengers fled in horror.

Garnet Caton, who was sitting just one seat in front of the two men, said he did not hear the two speak to each other before the attack. Caton said the victim appeared to be sleeping with headphones on when his seat mate suddenly began stabbing him repeatedly.

"We heard this bloodcurdling scream and turned around, and the guy was standing up, stabbing this guy repeatedly, like 40 or 50 times," Caton said from a hotel in Brandon, Manitoba, where he and other horrified passengers were taken.

Caton said the driver stopped the bus when he became aware of the attack and passengers raced off. A short while later, Caton said he re-boarded along with the bus driver and a trucker who had stopped to see what was happening.

He said the suspect had the victim on the floor of the bus and "was cutting his head off" with a large hunting knife.

'No rage or anything'
"When he was attacking him, he was calm ... like he was at the beach," said Caton. "There was no rage or anything. He was just like a robot stabbing the guy."

The attacker turned toward them and the three men quickly left the bus, blocking the door as the attacker slashed at them through an opening. Caton said the driver disabled the vehicle after the attacker tried to drive it away.

As the three guarded the door with a crow bar and a hammer, the attacker went back to the body and calmly came to the front of the bus to show off the head, Caton said.

Cody Olmstead, another passenger, said the man "dropped the head and went back and started cutting the body." Olmstead said the man later use the head to taunt police.

Olmstead said many were watching the movie "The Legend of Zorro" when the violence erupted.

Greyhound spokeswoman Abby Wambaugh said there were 37 passengers aboard.

The victim had been on the Winnipeg, Manitoba-bound bus since Edmonton. Caton said the attacker boarded the bus in Brandon, Manitoba, about 80 miles west of Portage La Prairie.

The suspect had been on the bus about an hour and initially did not sit near the victim, Caton said. But he changed seats after a rest stop.

"He sat in the front at first, everything was normal," Caton said.

"We went to the next stop and he got off and had a smoke with another young lady there. When he got on the bus again, he came to the back near where I was sitting.

"He put his bags in the overhead compartment. He didn't say a word to anybody. He seemed totally normal," Caton said. "About a half an hour later, we heard this bloodcurdling scream."

2nd degree murder? What because it wasn't premeditated? Looks like plain and simple 1st degree to me. Should easily be a death sentence. And I think if you really want to make laws and take peoples rights away. While at it just make a law that says if you see someone in trouble and dont help you will be punished as well.

Not sure how comparing this to a war is the same thing. I served my country but not in war time and if I would of been drafted to fight for my country I would have. But to sit and watch a young man, now listen closely, scream for his life and do nothing I dont think so. Not this guy. Say as you will but it doesnt take a hero to help when someone is going to lose their life. But back to Marks point. Its the fear people have is why they sit and do nothing. And yes, if you break down my door you will meet my friends smith and wesson. And it won't be fear squeezing the trigger it will be anger.

[twistedcrankcammer]

What would be some of the stories in the news where armed bystanders prevent a killing? I can't recall reading any. I see gunmen walk into churches, schools, McDonalds, factories, post offices and homes -- all places where citizens hang out - - and begin mowing people down.I don't read EVERY story, but I can't recall the ones where armed citizens prevent it by shooting the gunman.

Exactly!! You don't here about it, the press is biased! You keep hearing about "Automatic Weapons", seeing video of "Automatic weapons", and hearing about "Banning Asault weapons"

First; Automatic weapons are machine guns and sub machine guns that require a class 3 liscense, an FBI background check, and are punishable bt 20 years for having in your possesion if not legally possesed, yet I still hear and see automatic weapons on TV. The only crime I can think of that automatic weapons were used for was the bank shootout. Automatic weapons are used in such a small percentage of crimes as to be less than 1/100th percent of violent crimes commited. Yet we still see video of machine guns on TV.

Secondly; So called "Assault Weapons" are "Self Loaders" or incorrectly refered to as "Semi- Auto" with the abillity to accept magazines that may hold over 30 rounds. So called "Assault Weapons" are used in less than 1 half of 1 percent of violent crimes, yet hand guns are used in 85% of all violent crimes, so do you see 170 handgun crimes reported on TV for every single so called "Assault rifle" crime?? Why the inconsistency?? It is sensationalism!!

mdeneen,

To answer your question, there are many, many cases of armed citizens preventing roberies and death, but the main media does not cover it!! Get yourself a copy of "the American Rifleman", they have a section tittled "the Armed Citizen" in which they publish at least a dozen stories every month about armed citizens protecting their own lives or the lives of others against an armed attacker in this country. These stories usually quote local newspaper sources that they were taken from. Why the inconsistency in reporting of citizens protecting others from the national news media??? You tell me!!!

I did a 16 page paper on the inconsistencies of reporting done by the national news media back in colledge. The highest year for gun death in the USA ever, was 1992. In 1992 the USA had 43,000 gun related deaths. This number reflects all deaths, including hunting accidents, suicides, home accidents, and violent crimes. 60% of these involved violent crime, including such things as catching the spouse cheating, and divorce resolutions. Now 43,000 sounds loike a huge number, but that is due in part for john Q publicks lack of understading in regaurds to large number ratios and what a small segment of actual society this involves to to unproportional reporting methods. In that same year of 1992, we had 44,000 alcohol related trafic fatalities, this number does not include the number of alcohol related deaths due to sclerosis of the liver, ascites, or the gun suicides or other forms of sicides that took their own life while intoxicated. In 1992, the American Lung Association reported 110,000 deat from "SECOND HAND SMOKE"!!!!. Deaths are deaths, and what is killing people is what is killing people, so why the discrepancy on what we hear reported??? You tell me!!

Roger

[twistedcrankcammer]

This isn't the wild west, ............................ You just can't carry guns and go around shooting people, no matter what reason ! Lot of tough talk here, wish some of you had been with us over in Viet Nam, maybe we could have won that one, or atleast saved a few more lives over there. Talk all you want, you don't know what you will do, until the MOMENT of truth comes ....................

You can see something like this coming:

You are on a long bus ride, and its 2 am. You are strapped with your trusty .44 magnum - the most powerful handgun in the world. In the seat just ahead of you, you see a man raise up with a hunting knife in hand ready to thrust it into the man next to him. With a second to react, you draw your "44" and blow the knife wielders head off. Afterwords, when everyone has wiped the blood and brains off their faces, we discover the man you shot was simply defending himself from the other man's knife which was burried in his stomach, but which you couldn't see because it was out of your view. Now what Harry?

mdeneen,

You are making up your own case scenario to fit your own argument!! That is not what happened here, two of the people on the bus had a hammer and crow bar!! If you can't intelligently defend your possition, then don't!! Any, and all of us could create a B-LL SH-T scenario to have what ever outcome we wanted!!

Roger

[twistedcrankcammer]

...................What would have happened to flight 93 with a full passenger roster of individuals such as yourself???

Roger

It's fine for you to express your opinions but that calls for an apology. You have no idea of who you're talking to.

sputnik,

The only thing your last statement calls for is for you to put the crack pipe down. I made a comparrison. I am not responsible if it hit a nerve for you that I could and did not know about, I therefore submit that I owe no such appologee!! If you want to educate me on what you are talking about, then fine, but don't tell me what I owe for anything that was unnintentional!!

Roger

[twistedcrankcammer]

Oh, admit it- we've all wanted to do something just like this at one time or another...

Michael,

I really like the forum members post that always reads at the bottom something like "there comes a time in all our lives when we feel the need to roll up our sleeves and slit some throats"[]

Rog

[twistedcrankcammer]

Here is my general reply to all gun arguments.

Americans have become the most fearful population on the planet. They are scared silly of the most absurd risks you can calculate. They are psychologically and collectively cowering in fear. Guns is an outlet for that fear which falsely makes one feel more safe. The flames of this fear are being fanned daily, hourly, almost constantly.

To alleviate the uncontrollable shaking fear, they buy more guns, buy larger SUVs, buy houses in gated communities, agree to any suggested search and seisure laws that will "reduce risks". They start wars with imagined enemies holding imagined weapons pointed at imagined targets. They acquiesce to every control mechanism proposed by a Father figure government, from strip searches at the airport to eavesdropping to 24 hour camera surveillance.. They demand absurd physical constraints such as thousand mile border "fences" when no such thing is even possible. They easily relinquish rights to privacy in exchange for more security. They scapegoat entire races or ethnicities as enemies. They are obsessed with security and can't shake the grip of mortal fear.

This makes them sheep. Easy to lead, easy to steer, easy to manipulate. They confuse having a gun with being courageous. No, being courageous is being able to accept life IN liberty. Liberty grants no concessions to security. Liberty does not submit to phony authorities, illegal searches, surveillance systems, monitoring, wiretapping, eavesdropping, torture, star chambers, illegal detentions, phony threats, absurd risks, and fearmongering. Get all the guns you want - - it ain't gonna add one iota to your courage to live free. We've already proven that, haven't we?

This is not "Retard 101" The second ammendmant was written for the people to be able to protect themselves from an oppressive government, my right were given in 1776, and are not up for your debate!! I am not in fear of any man, you, or anyone else, armed or not. I love to shoot, I love to hunt, I find sitting at a reloading bench relaxing, and I have no weapons with me. I am afraid of our current government and the right of abundant, non cerebelar idiots that have the right to vote!! AS FOR GUNS NEVER HAVING A POSSITIVE EFFECT!! "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it" You might be speaking Japaneese right now if it were for the number of private gun ownership during the second world war, or didn't you ever here that story??

Roger

[twistedcrankcammer]

Jeff,

Are you talking into thin air, or is that last comment aimed at me? I can't tell.

But if aimed at me, I counter this: owing guns has made nothing better. Period. There are more guns in the USA than any other country on earth, and yet we are less FREE than 20 years ago! So, something ain't workin' pal! What do you want - - TWO guns for every person? SIX? Just let me know when it actually accomplishes something.

Once again "Guns have made nothing better"?? THe mainland USA was not attacked in WWII because of the projected cassualties inflicted by private gun ownership!! You may not of been hear, or had the freedom to print such uninformed nonscence if it were not for that piece of history.

Roger

[jacksonbart]

Americans have become the most fearful population on the planet. They are scared silly of the most absurd risks you can calculate. They are psychologically and collectively cowering in fear. Guns is an outlet for that fear which falsely makes one feel more safe. The flames of this fear are being fanned daily, hourly, almost constantly.

To alleviate the uncontrollable shaking fear, they buy more guns, buy larger SUVs, buy houses in gated communities, agree to any suggested search and seisure laws that will "reduce risks". They start wars with imagined enemies holding imagined weapons pointed at imagined targets. They acquiesce to every control mechanism proposed by a Father figure government, from strip searches at the airport to eavesdropping to 24 hour camera surveillance.. They demand absurd physical constraints such as thousand mile border "fences" when no such thing is even possible. They easily relinquish rights to privacy in exchange for more security. They scapegoat entire races or ethnicities as enemies. They are obsessed with security and can't shake the grip of mortal fear.

This makes them sheep. Easy to lead, easy to steer, easy to manipulate. They confuse having a gun with being courageous. No, being courageous is being able to accept life IN liberty. Liberty grants no concessions to security. Liberty does not submit to phony authorities, illegal searches, surveillance systems, monitoring, wiretapping, eavesdropping, torture, star chambers, illegal detentions, phony threats, absurd risks, and fearmongering. Get all the guns you want - - it ain't gonna add one iota to your courage to live free. We've already proven that, haven't we?

You know marijuana has a tendancy to make you paraniod, you should lay off it a bit.

[twistedcrankcammer]

More guns = more deaths.

What other country is as heavily armed on a per capita basis as the US? Afghanistan? Iraq? Israel? Well, the Israelis have a point, what with rockets flying over their borders every day and suicide bombers walking their streets, as well as being surrounded by larger countries who've sworn to wipe them off the map. Those conditions don't apply in the US, do they?

America has lots of gun factories making thousands of weapons every day. There are jobs to be protected. We'd better have a culture that values gun ownership or we'll lose money and jobs.

However, all those skilled workers could be making medical equipment or building supplies, or something else that saves or improves lives, instead of adding to the oversupply of handheld killing machines.

Jeff, try visiting another country, one where none of the people around you are carrying pistols, and see if you feel less safe.

More Guns=More Deaths??

Another uneducated statement!! The second ammendmant is to protect the citizen against an oppressive government!! I guess less guns depends on who has those guns now doesn't it?? Go ask the Sadam era "marsh arabs", and Shites, Hitler era Jews, Catholics, Gays, or countless other minorities in their own countries arround the world. Think it can't happen here?? Tell it to the Asians put in detainee camps in WWII.

Roger

[twistedcrankcammer]

Here is an indisputable fact: Your liberty in the USA is INVERSELY proportional to the growth in the number of guns in circulation. Period. End of story. As the number of guns has risen, your actual liberty has fallen. So, whoopie doo, let's run out and get more guns!!

I have become abivelent about guns because the argument has turned out to be less than meaningless. The "great defenders of the Second Ammendment" - hollering and yelling for all their guns, just let the Bill of Rights slip right through their trigger fingers. Who the hell cares if you have a gun when living in a police state? You guys slay me - really. Talk about penny wise and pound foolish.

No Colledge huh??? There is no such thing as an indisputable fact!! Loosing liberty has nothing to do with gun numbers, it has to do with false media coverage and the government seizing more control by using an excuse of terrorism!! We have 13 million Ilegals in this country, yet a US citizen now needs a passport to enter and leave Canada and Mexico, but it is for our safety?? Ya right!! If 13 million Illegals can cross the border, then how hard is it for an actual terrorist cell or cells if they really want to. Unthinkable idiots in this country have bought into a bunch of false BS to take away our rights, and this is only more of a reason to take a healthy second look at the reason for the second amendment!!

You have become "abiivelent"? You mean ambivilent?? about guns.... What a crock of crap!! If you are ambivelent then why do you keep posting more uninformed giberish??

Roger

[twistedcrankcammer]

Americans have become the most fearful population on the planet. They are scared silly of the most absurd risks you can calculate. They are psychologically and collectively cowering in fear. Guns is an outlet for that fear which falsely makes one feel more safe. The flames of this fear are being fanned daily, hourly, almost constantly.

To alleviate the uncontrollable shaking fear, they buy more guns, buy larger SUVs, buy houses in gated communities, agree to any suggested search and seisure laws that will "reduce risks". They start wars with imagined enemies holding imagined weapons pointed at imagined targets. They acquiesce to every control mechanism proposed by a Father figure government, from strip searches at the airport to eavesdropping to 24 hour camera surveillance.. They demand absurd physical constraints such as thousand mile border "fences" when no such thing is even possible. They easily relinquish rights to privacy in exchange for more security. They scapegoat entire races or ethnicities as enemies. They are obsessed with security and can't shake the grip of mortal fear.

This makes them sheep. Easy to lead, easy to steer, easy to manipulate. They confuse having a gun with being courageous. No, being courageous is being able to accept life IN liberty. Liberty grants no concessions to security. Liberty does not submit to phony authorities, illegal searches, surveillance systems, monitoring, wiretapping, eavesdropping, torture, star chambers, illegal detentions, phony threats, absurd risks, and fearmongering. Get all the guns you want - - it ain't gonna add one iota to your courage to live free. We've already proven that, haven't we?

You know marijuana has a tendancy to make you paraniod, you should lay off it a bit.

Dude, that is the first post I have been able to take lightly here!! Thanks, I loved it!!

Roger

[Guest srobak]

Gun ownership has risen in the past 50 years - - correct?
Freedom has declined in the last 50 years - - also correct, right?
Ipso facto, more guns has done nothing to secure liberty in the USA.

This is horribly skewed, even for you. There are a multitude of reasons why gun ownership has increased, as there are a multitude of reasons why your liberties have "decreased" if that's what you want to call it. Those reasons are not intertwined, and attempting to link them as cause and effect makes about as much sense as saying the Ciceda outbreak in the midwest last year has done nothing to thwart shark attacks off the west coast.

Ipso facto - more guns has done nothing to hinder, restrict, or suspend liberty in the USA.

In fact - I would have to say it HAS in fact helped to secure my own personal liberites, as it was instrumental in preventing someone else from causing physical harm or death to me and/or those friends/family/bystanders within my proximity on 3 occassions as a civillian.

[bluesboy]

Mark, how would you define real liberty?