JBL L-350 VS> K HORNS

[tim3]

I've been running a pair of Cornscallas for about a yer and a half now.All during this time,I've been posting,looking for a way to get more out of them with jnot much luck.I all ways thought about K Horns,but Bob Crites did'nt think I'd notice a whole lot of difference between my Cornscalas & the K's.I finally got a chance to get a pr. of K's & decided to get them.Now there is a pr. of JBL L-350 spkrs.(item # 10282187039 on Ebay).They are supposidly L-300 w/ an extra 15" woofer.The JBL L-300 seem to have a huge following.My question is do any of you have an opinion on how the JBL L-350's would stack up against the K Horns.Any help & opinions would be greatly appreciated.Thanks,Tim.

[ZAKO]

My money would be on the JBL L-350 Better quality components.... First thing you do with a K horn is dump the cheap drivers.

[Coytee]

First thing you do with a K horn is dump the cheap drivers

I thought the K400/401 was the primary offender? Isn't that what Al K suggests?

[Marvel]

Any help & opinions would be greatly appreciated.Thanks,Tim.

From what you have said you want, I don't think you would like them.

[ZAKO]

Coytee,,,,, In that case dump the 402 horn too.

[tim3]

I'm very surpised.I would'nt be so surprised if I was on just a general hi-fi forum,but being on the Klipscg forum,I'm not sure why I've only getting responses to my post stating that the flag ship of Klipsch spkrs. only have inferior components.If I was'nt familiar w/ Klipsch & obviously a fan of the spkr.,If I read the responses to the K Horns,I would think to stay way away from the spkr.What does everyone think.Thanks,Tim.

[PrestonTom]

Well Tim a speaker is like a car.

Any car can be improved with better tires, shocks, etc. The issue is finding the weak link and "fixing" it at a reasonable cost. Personally I think that a new Klipschorn at $7,500 is a good deal. A used Klipschhorn at $2000-3000 is a fantastic deal.

My personal opinion is that the weak link in the Klipschorn is the mid-range horn. The second target would probably be the crossover, since it does not have time-alignment (this would require a active circuit). The third target would be the tweeter. Eventually, I would worry about the woofer, but not immediately. This is my opinion, others may disagree.

Does this mean that I think the Klipschorn is bad speaker? Absolutely not, it is a great speaker. However, with more money, any speaker cabinet can be made better. It just requires a plan and a clear definition of what you think the problem areas are. Personally, I used a stock K-Horn and I was as happy as a clam.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[tim3]

Thank You for your time Tom.What I have a problem is that if I get a car that has most of what I want & I have to replace,say,the carb,that would make sense.But if I got a car & had to switch the engine,the tranny,& the rearend,that would'nt make much sense.How I see it,your saying I should eventually replace the squaker,then the woofer,then the tweeter.I would think that a more reasonable thing would to would to find a car chasis & then get a tranny,an engine & then a rearend.Same as this situation,if I'm desifering right,I should find some cabs.,or get some made & then go on Ebay or other hi-fi forums & get the components one by one.Please,please don't get me wrong.I so much appreciate all of you,who I think,on the most part,as hi-fi geniuses,that take the time & educate a begginer like me on the questions that I ask.I just wanted to throw this anolagy out there & see what you all think.Again,thank all of you so much for your time & opinions.I've tried other forums for my delemas & won't go anywhere else for my information being Klipsch or other wise.Thanks,Tim.

[PrestonTom]

Tim, I won't continue with the car analogy. But let me say that for $2000-3000 an unmodified Klipschorn is a great deal and will give very good sound. My opinion has been that the next step is to simply, listen, listen, listen and enjoy. After that, I would perform some very low cost changes.

1. Experiment with different locations in the room (cabinets and chair), even if it means constructing a false corner (search the threads).

2. Carefully make sure that the cabinets are snug into the corners and use pipe foam to ensure the seal (search the threads)

3. Spend a $25 on refreshing the caps in the crossovers.

4. Spend more time and listen, listen, listen.

Then decide if you like the sound.

Incidentally my suggestions cost very little money and they will make a difference. After that, if you want to spend more money, then go the next step(s) (mid-horn, electronic crossover, tweeter etc). Certainly focus the modifications on what you think the specific problems are. There is quite a bit of good advice on this forum as you take this journey.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[greg928gts]

Tim, I'm a little surprised at the response here too, so let me just chime in with a few observations.

First, in my opinion, the Khorns will walk all over those JBL's, as long as they are set up in a room that works with Khorns. I say this not from a "volume-blast-your-ears-out" point of view, but rather from a balanced, quality of sound point of view. The Khorn bass bin is much more efficient than that JBL cabinet, and will therefore produce much cleaner, well-defined bass with much less distortion. It is true that the Khorn stock mids have their deficiencies, but they are also very good at producing midrange all the way down to 400Hz, and again with extreme efficiency and low distortion. The Khorn tweeter is durable and easily a match for what the JBL's have in them. I just don't see how anyone would think that owner-modified JBL L-300 cabinets could possibly compete with properly set up stock Khorns. Given what you know about Klipsch Khorns, why would you chance it to pay so much money for something that wasn't even produced, tested, and marketed by JBL? It will also cost a lot more for the big amplifier that will be needed to push the JBL's to the same volume level as the Khorn, and with more distortion.

I agree that the components that JBL used were higher in quality than the components in the stock Khorn, it's the overall design of the fully horn-loaded Khorn that makes the difference, and has proven itself for 60 years. JBL L-300 what? Never heard of it.

Regarding the thinking that the first thing you do to a pair of Khorns is dump the cheap components; I don't completely disagree with this, I think Tom hit it just right in that changing Khorn components should be a personal process done over a long period of time. It's part of the growth of your system. But I also think this illustrates how deficient Klipsch has been in advancing the state of the art in building fully horn-loaded loudspeakers. There's a lot that Klipsch could and should be doing to improve on the Khorn, or better yet, introduce a new speaker that builds on what the Khorn is. Slapping together some components from their commercial line, with the recommendation of using digital processing to make them sound right, and only selling them "hush hush" on the forum, is not my idea of the way I think Klipsch should be honoring their Founders vision.

Buy the JBL's and you'll be looking for something better in just a few months. Buy Khorns and you'll be making a few changes here and there over a lifetime of enjoyment with the same speakers.

Greg

[ZAKO]

I wouldnt put too much stock in efficiency these days,,,Amp power is cheap... Yes changing drivers seem daunting.. But i dumped the Klipsch mid and HF drivers 35 yrs ago never looked back,,,, the value was in the bass horn.. The JBL350 is a variant design of the Westlake speaker... Well proven in the pro recording studios. Some where done by small studio designers like Augspurger,,, A well respected stidio designer and at one time was with JBL.. Although i dont know the provinence of this one.. But again getting the K horn could be a good start in starting a fine system.

[BEC]

Tim, Perhaps it is time for you to state for the forum exactly what you want in speakers. You and I have talked by email and phone for a very long time about this and I am still not sure what you want. I can tell you what I think you want and you can tell me if I am wrong.

I think you want speakers that are extremely efficient (over 104 db at one watt), that cover all the audible spectrum and more (perhaps 20 hz to well over 20 khz.), and that can handle hundreds (at least 800) watts of power. Let me know if that is right or better explain what you do want.

Bob Crites

[mikebse2a3]

Regarding the thinking that the first thing you do to a pair of Khorns is dump the cheap components; I don't completely disagree with this, I think Tom hit it just right in that changing Khorn components should be a personal process done over a long period of time. It's part of the growth of your system. But I also think this illustrates how deficient Klipsch has been in advancing the state of the art in building fully horn-loaded loudspeakers. There's a lot that Klipsch could and should be doing to improve on the Khorn, or better yet, introduce a new speaker that builds on what the Khorn is. Slapping together some components from their commercial line, with the recommendation of using digital processing to make them sound right, and only selling them "hush hush" on the forum, is not my idea of the way I think Klipsch should be honoring their Founders vision.

Hey Greg....sorry but I can't just let this go by with out responding.

It might not be the best way (matter of opinion) to honor the founder's vision but at least the founder's vision hasn't totally died because some people have been able to see/hear beyond the word "commercial" and responded positively to it!

Active Digital Processing isn't necessary to make them sound "rigth" but can address one of the most difficult issues to solve with an all horn loaded systems and that is the delay between seperate Horn/Drivers of an all Horn System. This is not a night and day difference when first listened to but once you have a chance to compare a system with and without this correction in the frequency regions were both horn/drivers are responding you can began to hear and understand how this makes the loudspeaker system better and more accurate. When people have not experienced or understand how the "PROPER USE" of todays digital processors when applied to loudspeakers can lead to a much more accurate system is when you will see those people spread unexperienced/unfounded comments that totally misleads the public about what is truely possible today!

I want you to know also the way we purchase them today is in reality probably the best way to buy them at this time and believe me you will not find a better supported product but yes it is different than many people are use to doing when buying a product. When you think outside the box a little some of the best oportunities in life happen and I believe you will find most all current Jubilee owners are very thankfull for the oportunity that has been offered to them. For people to search out and often on faith, trust and belief/confidence in what they hear and (dispite what some might say) they purchase the Jubilee as it now stands is amazing to me in how much that says about the respect and honor we have for PWK and Roy included for his vital contributions to what we have.

The "Slapping Together" comment you made is so wrong on so many levels! Anyone who has spent much time on this forum and reading about the Jubilee's that we are buying should know how misleading that statement is. The Jubilee we are using is a very well tested/researched product that has been assembled from what Roy believes is some of the very best componets Klipsch has today to form an all Horn Loaded System for home use.

Contrary to what some like Maron and others have said the K402 Horn is a vital part of what makes the Jubilee such a ground breaking system and anyone who really understands how horns work and/or have done direct comparisons with other horns can tell you that the K402 is cutting edge for horn designs and believe me when I tell you it is more than appropriate for home use because of the way it contrlos it's direcitivity over it designed bandwidth. This control of the K402 I mention is exactly what a home enviroment needs and makes the Jubilee/K402 again at the cuting edge of room integration of the system by making the system more predictable than any other loudspeaker system I know of when placed in the listening enviroment.

If it's about the sound, then the Khorn has been improved buy the Jubilee which PWK stated himself and if someone wants to experience the version that Roy believes represents the best possible sound from it then he is just an e-mail away. If your waiting for an all out dressed up home version who knows when or if that will happen but if it does it's going to cost easily above $20,000 dollars IMO (isn't that what Palladiums are listing for now?) for no better sound than we can enjoy at this time.

mike tn

Enjoying the sound of the Jubilee 2 years now!

[greg928gts]

Mike - we've hijacked a thread here, so this is perhaps not the best place to get into a long response, so I'm going to keep this short.

I respect what you're saying, but I disagree with a lot of it.

The rabid response from Jubilee owners is the reason why I've kept quiet about my experience. My experience with Jubilee ownership has been mostly positive, and I do think they are better than Khorns for the most part. I love listening to my Jubs, there are just things about them that I'm critical of, just like we all are critical of certain elements of the mighty Khorn. It's o.k. to talk about the shortcomings of the Khorn, but mention one little criticism of the Jubilee and 500-word emotional responses follow.

I'm critical of the way Klipsch as a company has abandoned the advancement of the state-of-the-art of designing fully horn-loaded loudspeakers. If the Jubilee really is that great, then why doesn't Klipsch put it in their product line up, one step up from the Khorn? I think this is exactly what they should do.

"Slapped together" IS a bit harsh, but we ARE talking about products made for movie theaters.

When I said digital processing, I was mostly talking about the equalization needed. Can you think of another well-known speaker that needs equalization to make it sound right? I can, I'm just not going to say it here. It's not how PWK EVER designed a speaker.

It's not how WE buy them that's the problem, I agree, it's a great way to buy. It's how so many others are not able to buy them that is the problem.

Good post Mike, maybe we should start another thread. But I'm scared! []

Greg

[greg928gts]

I wouldnt put too much stock in efficiency these days,,,Amp power is cheap...

I disagree, efficiency is directly related to distortion. Isn't it true that the more power we put into a speaker, the higher the distortion? The reason the Khorn works so well is because of extreme efficiency and low distortion. That's where we get that clean, effortless sound.

Greg

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Tim, Perhaps it is time for you to state for the forum exactly what you want in speakers. You and I have talked by email and phone for a very long time about this and I am still not sure what you want. I can tell you what I think you want and you can tell me if I am wrong.

I think you want speakers that are extremely efficient (over 104 db at one watt), that cover all the audible spectrum and more (perhaps 20 hz to well over 20 khz.), and that can handle hundreds (at least 800) watts of power. Let me know if that is right or better explain what you do want.

Bob Crites

[:S]

[greg928gts]

MCM's?

[Nat Denkin]

If I recall correctly, distortion is proportional to the square of the pressure in the throat. As the pressure of the air varies, so does the speed of the sounds going through it. That's one of the reasons speakers use multiple drivers to keep the mid and higher frequencies away from the varying presssure of the lower frequencies. Effieciency does matter for a given design, but horns are not the only way. AR-3's sounded pretty good in a dorm room decades ago.

It can be fun to "improve" the sound of speakers changing the drivers, horns, and crossovers. The result is a personal choice. There will always be many claims of the absolutely best design--and they are all correct.

People who build their own speakers are more passionate about the results--and they should be.

nat

[bodcaw boy]

When I said digital processing, I was mostly talking about the equalization needed. Can you think of another well-known speaker that needs equalization to make it sound right? I can, I'm just not going to say it here. It's not how PWK EVER designed a speaker.

ummm.....not true. all of paul's networks were "balancing networks" and therefore have some eq in them. it's the nature of the beast; use a horn, need eq level trimming and that is still true of our networks today.

take care,

roy

[DrWho]

I wouldnt put too much stock in efficiency these days,,,Amp power is cheap...

Amplifier power has nothing to do with high efficiency. A perfect example would be electrostats: high efficiency, low sensitivity. The fact that high sensitivity usually comes along with the high efficiency of horns is merely a pleastant byproduct for the wallet.