Klipsch vs Bose?

[twistedcrankcammer]

You are correct sir, in that there is no competition, your Bose do not do what you say they do. You have only heard bargain store Klipsch in the last month and you feel experienced enough to speak however uninformed on the subject. I say I will prove you wrong in person, no fight, no argument, watt for watt, Db for Db, SPL for SPL, clarity for clarity. Pack up your cubes and let's compare, you just might learn that your one month education just aint all that...

Roger

OK! Be happy with your monstrously powerful speakers.. I have nothing against them.

Ramsha,

How could you have anything against my speakers?? You have never even heard a pair of these. I am offering you a chance to broaden your experience with some high end speakers that otherwise you will probably never see a pair of in your life.

Roger

[Ramsha]

How could you have anything against my speakers?? You have never even heard a pair of these.

Roger

Does that matter?

[twistedcrankcammer]

How could you have anything against my speakers?? You have never even heard a pair of these.

Roger

Does that matter?

Ramsha,

I would say it matters as you stae you like Bose better then Klipsch, but have never even heard a set like mine that are Klipsch. I'd say it speaks volumes about your expertise of your own opinion.

Roger

[Oblio]

Trust me, if I could get similar sound as I get from my Klipshorns with a small Bose I would buy them, but you can't. And until some laws are broken you won't be able to.

What's up? You churn out judgement faster than Judge Judy on the Idiot Box!

What judgement ?

Give me a Bose model number. I'm serious. Klipschorns are a logistics pain. They are BIG, and HEAVY, and if you hang around here you will learn what WAF means

Can you feel the music, in a way that makes that nut at the stoplight seem like a wimp ?

If you can give us THAT without the pain, we'll talk.

[Ramsha]

If you can give us THAT without the pain, we'll talk.

As if I was arguing with you. [|-)] I said twice 'Be Happy'. and you keep coming back to me. You are following Roger's way... Tring to compare and compete as if I am spokesman for Bose!

I said 2 things: A) Tendencies of Bose Bashers and flimsy arguments they put forward Why small speakers (Cubes) from Bose sound as same as much bigger ones from their competitiors. I wanted to know. I am searching.

Stopping here!

[Ramsha]

I would say it matters as you stae you like Bose better then Klipsch, but have never even heard a set like mine that are Klipsch. I'd say it speaks volumes about your expertise of your own opinion.

Roger

OK, Be happy with your knowledge! I am with mine!

[Oblio]

If you can give us THAT without the pain, we'll talk.

I said 2 things: A) Tendencies of Bose Bashers and flimsy arguments they put forward Why small speakers (Cubes) from Bose sound as same as much bigger ones from their competitiors. I wanted to know. I am searching.

Stopping here!

OK

Now I am curious

a) What 'flimsy' arguments ? and ...

Specifically what Bose Model sound the same as which specific brand/model competitor ?

[dgoreck]

@Ramsha: What model of Bose do you have? I have read the past 4 pages, and did not see once you mentioning what exact product you have. I am curious.

I don't know if I have posted this little story in this thread before or not, but here we go.

So my cousin comes over saying he just bought the new V20 Lifestyle system. I was like congrats. How do you like them? He was like, wow, they are amazing. The sound comes from all around, and is some enveloping. Now he hadn't been to my house in quite some time, and I just recently setup my Klipsch Promedia Ultra 5.1's (the computer speakers) in my little 'man cave' room with when this happened, and 27" Westinghouse HDTV. I told him, hey have a listen to my little speaker setup and tell me what you think. So I popped in Transformers into the HD-DVD player with him, his brother-inlaw, and his brother-in-laws son. I played the first like 10 minutes when the base gets attacked. I had the system at my normal listening volume of -20. So I stopped the movie, and was like, what you think. He said wow. sounds totally different. He said he felt the explosions more, in the couch and in his chest. He said the gun shots also sounded more realistic then when he was watching 'Wanted' on his system the other day. They had more punch, and also more high end. Closer to real life when you hear a piece of glass shatter. So I told him I spent $300 on those speakers. His jaw dropped, and he told me, next time he is going to call me for any AV needs before he buys anything. I didn't ask him how much he paid for his system.

One thing has always gotten me is that people say that Klipsch is to bright. You know to much highs. This comes from a variety of people. I ask them when was the last time you went to a concert or a live performance(even orchestra will do). They look at me weird. I respond with something along the lines as you will feel the sound is very similair between my home setup and what you hear on broadway, to a concert, to a live orchestra.

[Ramsha]

What model of Bose do you have? I have read the past 4 pages, and did not see once you mentioning what exact product you have. I am curious.

Will have V-30. I heard them for many a weeks and others for months... Decided to go for V-30. Great.... However, I must say others sounded great, but there was some detailing in V-30 that was missing in most of them,

The story you have is great and realistic... I won't disbelieve that. Klipsch too sound well! I depends what I need for my ears -- is it more Bass, etc. etc. or full package? and how my ears react to that! Taste matters..

[dtel]

I just read this whole thing and I believe you really should get the V-30 if thats what you like. That's what it's all about, if they sound good to you what else matters?

I made my choice and I did it the smart way, I never listened to anything any company said I just made my choice on what sounds best to me, pure and simple !

I don't really care what Klipsch thinks I should have or how they rate them all, I care about is what reaches my ears, and I doubt anyone at Klipsch would have a problem with that.

You want room filling sound, come on over with a blindfold on, nothing should matter except the sound quality right ? If looks are more important, I am talking to the wrong person sorry, I thought we were talking quality audio, not WAF .

[Coytee]

I urge you guys to remember Batman's Robin

[Coytee]

You want room filling sound, come on over with a blindfold on, nothing should matter except the sound quality right ? If looks are more important, I am talking to the wrong person sorry

I really like that. I wonder if it would make a good sig line???

[Y]

[DrWho]

What I have stated is that People thought that
'they have reahed Physical Limits' in improving performance and can't
go further! Everytime they said it, they were proven wrong. Same is
happening in 'Audio' field too.

Example: "We can't pack more
Transistors in Processors! Its Physical limit" said some Research
papers in Electronics field in 1970-80s! Where are we now. It was not
Physics that was bent to break the barrier, but smarter thinking and
Technology!

When the engineers said they had reached
physical limits, the comments were true....manufacturing capabilities
at the time were the limiting factor. They had already designed the
next set of faster chipsets when those comments were made because they
knew it was only a matter of time for the manufacturing capabilities to
catch up. It wasn't a matter of "maybe
we can do better", but was entirely a matter of "this is the best we
can do right now". If you are unable to build something, then it isn't
physically realizable. But again, they had already designed the next
two generations of chipsets before it was even possible to start
manufacturing them.

Just like the engineers understood the
limitations of semiconductor design, modern acoustics engineers know
what kind of performance is possible with today's methods. You keep
trying to allude to some magic tricks being done by Bose in their
speakers, but the fact of the matter is they're not doing anything
novel. Any loudspeaker manufacturer can have the exact same drivers
made by any OEM of their choice. Try taking one apart sometime...they
have a voice coil, spider, diaphragm, supension, magnet, pole piece,
top plate, and basket just like any other driver.

When a single
driver is asked to produce a wide bandwidth and in a small enclosure,
the laws of physics dictate a smaller acoustical impedance, which in
turn lowers the efficiency and reduces the sensitivity. The laws of
physics also require the diaphragm to move further at lower frequencies
in order to generate the same sound pressure levels as higher
frequencies. The bandwidth and size of the driver then dictate the
amount of intermodulation distortion created by the driver. It is
impossible to get rid of this distortion as it is intrinsictly linked
to the motion of the driver. The only way you can get more sound
pressure for a given excursion and a given acoustical impedance is to
violate conservation of energy. I don't see Bose advertising perpetual
motion.

The polar response of a driver is a direct function of its
geometry. For most of the operating range of the Bose driver, it has no
control over the polar response. At about 6kHz or so, however, it's
gonna start beaming and collapsing the polars. Although this can have
the effect of increased highs on axis, it has the downside of decreased
power response and doesn't load the room properly.

Also, the low
sensitivity that results from the small acoustic impedance means you
gotta pump more power into that little voice coil in order to get the
same sound pressure levels as a larger driver. When the voice coil
heats up, its resistance increases and causes power compression (yet
another form of distortion). Another form of power compression comes
from the stiffness of the suspension changing with excursion. Most
drivers have a range over which they are mostly linear, but all drivers
reach a point where the suspension stiffens up real fast (if they
didn't, then the diaphragms would get launched out of the driver all
the time). When you've got a smaller diaphragm, you need more excursion
for the same SPL, so you run into the suspension non-linearities
sooner. You've also got inductance modulation from the diaphragm
movement which is going to make the amplitude of the highs change with
time, which shows up as even more intermodulation distortion. There are
known ways of dramatically improving upon these behaviors, but you
don't see them being implemented in Bose drivers...kinda hard to claim
state of the art if your'e not even taking care of the known variables.

Even if you wanted to believe in an imaginary world of "smarter
driver design", Bose isn't doing anything that could be considered
revolutionary. Their drivers suffer from exactly the same things that
modern acoustical principals would predict....I dunno about you, but I
personally don't like extra notes in my music....and especially not
extra notes that aren't even harmonically related. You'd have to be
tone deaf to not hear how the Bose drivers manipulate the sound.

[DrWho]

I urge you guys to remember Batman's Robin

I had as much fun then as I am having now []

[twistedcrankcammer]

I urge you guys to remember Batman's Robin

DUDE!!,

I'd rather NOT!!

Do you think this guy is a member of the "Rainbow Coalition" just like Robin??

That might help explain alot!! [+o(] [+o(] [+o(]

Roger

[Saturn5]

PWK did not start building speakers for the masses. Many people can't tell the difference or don't care. When I upgraded to my Klipsch setup, it forced me to upgrade other components as well because they showed me the inadequacies of the rest of my equipment. If you like listening to MP3s, or streaming audio on your PC, or even most modern compressed CDs, you probably won't be impressed. I have my PC hooked into my stereo but even when playing the best MP3s I have through my system, it doesn't come anywhere near sounding as good as the same material would sound in Dobly Digital played through the same system from my DVD player.

When you say something sounds "great" that's a subjective evaluation and has no reference unless you compare it to something else.

My Klipsch Promedia computer speakers sound incredible. I actually used them has my home theater speakers for years. But they don't hold a candle to my RF-7 setup I have now. I didn't fully appreciate what the difference between a "big sound" and "loud" was until I had my current system. I've never heard Klipschhorns, and to be quite honest, I'm in no hurry to hear them. If they are as big a jump above my RF-7s as my RF-7s were above my Promedia, then I would be disappointed that I can't afford a new pair of horns. I have found a sound that I am deleriously happy with at a price I can afford. If a Bose system fits that bill for you - you should buy it. But you should listen to other systems in the same price range to see if they deliver a more pleasing sound to your ears for the same money.

[Oaklands]

Man, did I get hammered with e-mails today about this subject. I have read all the posts and everyone has done a good job defending their position. At the risk of getting blasted, I am going to state my opinion.

I have a set Klipsch Forte II's and a pair of Bose 901's. I like both sets of speakers and plan on keeping both.

The Klipsch give me excellent full bass but can burn the heck out of my ears on the highs. They are all around great speakers when you adjust the stereo properly especially for the highs.

The Bose have a very nice tight bass which I do love. While not as deep as my Forte II's it is very tight and has a great sound. I do mean it when I say the speakers compliment each other. I love driving some serious 70's and 80's music through them.

Also, I have a Bose Lifestyle system for my home theatre setup. Is it the best? Probably not, but due to my limited room in my den, I could not go with large speakers. My room is shotgun style with an entrance into my kitchen and the main hallway, so no place to put large speakers. I am quite happy with the Lifestyle system for my particular circumstances. I get many compliments on the Lifestyle system and it suits my needs.

If I had my choice, I would have nothing but large speakers in my den. I would keep my Bose 901's in the lineup though.

Overall, the Klipsch offer me a full sound with the extra base I sometimes enjoy. The high's are great, but sometimes need to be toned down. The Bose give me the tight bass and real clarity when listening to jazz. I can hear all the instruments very clearly. Just call me a "Politician" on this one as I am walking the fence. I have a need for both sets of speakers. One last thing, when I want to run 700 watts per channel with my dual Hafler setup. the Bose can handle it with ease.

[Saturn5]

Will have V-30. I heard them for many a weeks and others for months... Decided to go for V-30. Great.... However, I must say others sounded great, but there was some detailing in V-30 that was missing in most of them,

The V-30 systems I've seen online run about $3000. Before I'd lay out that much on the Bose V-30, I'd want to hear other systems in the same price range. Klipsch has a few:

WF-34 - http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/wf-34-home-theater-overview/

XL-23 - http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/xl-23-home-theater-overview/

RF-62 - http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/rf-62-home-theater-system-overview/

Three different product lines with different attributes, but all 5.1 channel home theater systems for around $3000. True, you'll need to supply your own amp and DVD player, so you could knock it down to the next lower system with prices in the $2000-$2500 range, leaving enough left over for an AVR and DVD player.

If after comparing all of those systems (including any other brands you might think of), you should go with what sounds the best to you.

[Colin]

bigger is better

smaller is cuter

Bose sues the shit out of any publisher knocking their products, and everybody else too

301s are OK though

901s have great soundstage

the dynamics of music make it enjoyable and realistic in the long run

Klipsch has dynamic speakers

Jewel cubes are pleasant enough for background music

[Groomlakearea51]

"901s have great soundstage"

To a degree that would be true. I've owned the original Series-I and the latest Series-VIb or whatever they are (as a test pair, since sold). It's application, application, application.

Here's my extract from the thread: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/103276.aspx

Chiming in... I took some time to think about this in the context of the thread, so it's just my opinion...

First, and to be clear: IMO, the Klipsch Heritage series are the best speakers ever made. I cannot testify to Palladiums or Jubilees (yet), but based on the Klipsch "track record", I would not have any worries on that evaluation... I've had a boatload of speakers (probably more than Colter over the last 36 years!!) many of which which were very good (AR's, pairs of Altecs, etc.), but hands down when you compare everything (including how easy they are to maintain, tweak, etc.), they are simply the best. Some would argue some of the esoteric, >$20k types, and that's understandable, but $ for $, you just cannot beat a Klipsch.

The "901" point I would make, or throw out there for some thought is basically, and without the usual "let's just bash Bose", if someone want's to consider the Bose 901's, it's going to be the application. Notwithstanding the room environment, and how they are driven, the 901's have a particular application parameters, and unless they are used within those, they will not sound good, at all..... .

Some background... Back in the day.... I had 901's (2 pairs, stacked...) and bought them new in 1971 in the PX (got'em cheap because they were the demos with the scratched tops, etc.) when I was making the really big bucks on active duty. I drove them with Sansui AU-999's, and sold them in 1975 when I got all sophisticated and bought JBL 4311's and 4312's. I kept those and in 1979 got really upscale and bought my first pair of Klipschorns (KC-BB's). Had those, a pair of 78' Heresy's and assorted JBL's until 2004. Finally sold the JBL's (to some folks who lived in Taiwan as I recall) because I could not get replacement drivers from JBL anymore, and ever since "collected" Heritage series.

Meanwhile, for no reason other than just having the opportunity, last month I picked up a pair of the original 1968 Bose 901 Type-I's for $300. Oiled walnut, surrounds were the original fabric, and still in pretty much mint condition. The equalizer worked pefectly, etc. So.... and having had Bose 901's, and knowing that placement, amps, and in particular knowing that the equalizer has to be set correctly..... I did some experiments with them in the "man cave" as the "centers". I use the same amplifier types as the K-horns, LS's, Forte's, Heresy's, etc. and started fiddling around. Now once I "dialed in" the distance between them, the height off the floor, and the equalizer setting, they sounded just fine. But.... in that specific application.

Maybe I should say something about that now. I like sweet spot listening and do it often; but sometimes I just like the "concert hall - wall of voodoo", and for that effect, I use multiple amps and multiple speakers. It's a "heresy", I know, but it works for me (key thing here is "works for me"... ). I've had a number of guests (forum members) who have listened to the wall of voodoo, and they generally agree that for what I'm doing, the volume levels, etc., it works.

So in my case, or from my perspective, it's the application.... As an example, in the master bedroom (old wall of voodoo - but now the "wall of boudoir"...), the LaScala's (in the center), along with a pair of K'horns in the corners and an Onkyo AVR do the HT thing for my wife. She loves it; they look nice and pretty, and sure sound great. The Belles? When I get finished, they will be the bottom "centers" with a pair of Heresys up top side on the HT set-up in the living room. Unfortunately, there is no place for K-horns in that room, absolutely no "free" corners. Now to be sure, I tested the 901's in the "living room from hell" (no corners, vaulted ceiling, half height open center wall, etc) and while I can get them to work, would require a major re-alignment of the room's furniture, etc. It does not matter if they are Bose 901's, Klipschorns, etc., that room's solution is restricted by the geometry of the walls, etc. I'm stuck with Belles or Cornwalls or Heresys in that room's configuration, and then only on one side of the room. My son's room, however has corners, and the original "KC-BB black beasts" I bought in 1979. He's happy and while the room is small & "cramped", they work, and work well. So, as one can see, it's an "application" driven hobby for me. Right tool for the job analogy....

How do the 901's compare to Heritage? It's like, to me anyways, like trying to compare the steak to the salad on the dinner table. On a "one on one" they cannot do what Klipschorns, LaScalas or Belles will do. The 901 design is just not for that. And that's the key to the 901's....

I read (and re-read) again... the 19 January 1968 instruction manual (16 pages!), and the original Hirsch-Houck Labs (Julian Hirsch) reports from 1968, and the E&E Lab reports that are with the original documentation. The "clue" so to speak, is in those reports. To paraphrase Mr. Hirsch, the 901 is really good, but it's designed for a wide dispersion sound stage effect, or in other words to create an auditorium effect, and generally within the room to mimic the sound that is about mid-audience area. Hirsch was honest in his evaluation and basically inferred that by design, they do not have the generally desired "sweet spot" effect (like Klipschorns and the others...). He (and the others) noted that proper equalizer settings are absolutely critical to make the 901's work. They do not have that bass response of any of the horn loaded bins, in particular at very low volumes. But what the 901 does do (and that's what they were designed for...) is give a very good compromise at moderate volumes, and this was an important factor: With a relatively small "footprint.

So.... What good are they? Well.... It's arguable and subjective. What am I going to do with the 901's? Well.... Where they will work well is in that center space (with the exit door in the middle) between the Klipschorns & Forte's. I also found that (like referenced in this thread), that by having them only 12" from the walls works better; height? 24". Stands? No. Don't laugh, but in the man cave, they will be on the tops of a heavily modified pair of Heresy's (K-28's, D250X's, CT-125's and an E/4500 crossover) - Reason, while that center area in the wall of voodoo benefits from the direct/reflecting 901, I still like having that highly directional effect that the Heresys do so well as centers.

Again it is the application and what you are doing with them!! But that being said, all speakers require require proper placement, good amps, etc. And with one exception, most speakers seem to sound "better" with certain types of music, or at different volumes, and in certain room layouts. I would like to say straight away that the exception for me is the Klipschorn. Other than that pesky "corner" thing, it sounds really good all the time, regardless of the source music type, and regardless of the volume. Even at the lowest possible volume on the amplifier, with the mute switch, and while it sounds like it's 2 miles away, it's is still perfectly clear and "balanced". The Klipschorn just simply does it's job, quiet or loud. For that, it is the ultimate "universal" speaker. When I get up in the morning at 0:dark-thirty, and put on NPR and roust the kids, it's the Klipschorns in the man cave that get turned on and I can clearly listen to them throughout the house. Same thing for working in the home office/man cave. If I could convince the boss that I need to put a pair of Klipschorns in my office I would do it....

Would I buy a pair brand new for $1400 plus tax? Nope, not a chance. When I get ready to plop down $1400+ bucks for a new pair of speakers, it'll be H-III's for sure on that one. My theory is that for the same price, the H-III can hold it's own, sound is more "clear" (cannot beat those horns!!!), you can move them around, they don't really have to be critically placed, and you don't have to screw around with an equalizer, etc.

Would I recommend the 901's to anyone. Probably not. Two reasons really, one is mechanical, and the other is because I truly believe that within the Heritage series there is a choice for everyone that can do the overall job and pretty much do it better. The mechanical reason? Several actually: The 901's need that equalizer to work. It requires you to "route" all of your input through the equalizer by way of a tape deck circuit (tape-in - tape-out), and you can only run the 901's off that amp or receiver. You cannot run the 901's and let's say, surrounds, sub, etc off an AVR because the Bose EQ will make them sound awful strange... You can hook another pair of whatevers up, but you have to turn off the 901's and defeat the EQ. That's a pain. What it means is that if you use 901's, then you are going to be restricted to 901's (unless you have multiple amps, and the source is "upstream" from all of them).

The other issue is that the design uses a full range, 35 watt (x 9 of them) long excursion (which is what killed the older foam surrounds...) driver. Until the volume gets up a bit, the reflective technology does not overcome the dampening effects of the walls and the room acoustics. That's probably the reason so many folks say they suck or sound "muddy" at low volumes. Even the EQ cannot compensate across the board for that problem at low volumes. For consistently low volumes, you have to set the EQ just right. Then if you turn them up, you will have to re-adjust the EQ and turn on the 40hz filter, and change the HF level. Now that's a pain. The other issue, and Hirsch pointed it out, is that driving all of those 18 x 35 watt drivers takes a good amp. Back in 1968, he recommended at least 60 watts RMS, and suggested that 200 watts would be more the ideal. By nature of it's design, the 901 is not an "efficient" speaker in the sense of the Klipsch horn loaded designs. You could, I suppose, run them with a 10 watt tube amp, but..... what's the point?... because you could never get them loud enough to appreciate the intended "effect" for which they were designed.

When Dr. Bose was an engineering grad student at MIT, his whole focus was on developing the reflective part of the technology to create the large space "auditorium" effect, much more so than concentrating on a pair of speakers that relied upon the location of the listener as the classical designs generally required. To that end, yes, the 901 is a successful design, but it has it's limitations, and that's where the "let's compare" problem lies. I also think that one of the problems that Bose has with the 901's is their marketing approach. For so long they have touted the 901 as the "finest", the "best", etc., but without emphasizing why they were designed and what the buyer is going to do with them. They (or their dealers) also hurt themselves by generally only demonstrating them in carefully constructed and treated rooms with specific source material, etc. Buyer gets them home, expects a duplication of the precise set-up they saw at the showroom, and of course they "suck". An analogy would be to "forget" or failure to make sure a Klipschorn buyer fully understands that yah gotta' have them in them thar corners....

If someone tells me they are going to buy a pair, after the usual "why not Klipsch?" discussion, I will certainly ask them to describe what they are going to do with them. What type of sound are they looking for? etc. Again,, it's the application. Even if someone has a line on a really nice used pair and their heart is set on them, I'd always tell them to stay away from Series II through early Series VI. Reason, as pointed out in the thread, the surrounds rot out. Bose knows it and about 2-3 years ago, they went to a completely different type of driver construction. They were getting really bad press because of it and they were embarassed. They now use a type of surround material that will not deteriorate. The 901 is their "flagship", and they are very sensitive to bad press or bad opinions about the 901's.

In substance, one could conclude that the 901 has a specific type of application, and other than using them in that environment for which they were designed, they will have "issues". When I mentioned to fenderbender that they are intened for a room full of people, or let's say a room where you and everyone else are moving around alot, or a room in which the music is more of a background (or maybe better described as supplemental) rather than the focal point of the gathering, then ok, that's the application for which they are intended. Unfortunately, for Bose...., is that you can do the same thing with respect to having a system that you would use for that "supplemental" music, but get the better resolution from a pair of Klipschorns, LaScala's, Cornwalls, etc. for the main event which is, when all is said and done, just sitting down and listening to music.

Hope that is of some interest. Again, only my opinion based on my experience with the 901's and being able to compare them with Heritage speakers.