Hybrid Trachorn

[Kudret]

I've followd this thread for a whileto learn what the conspiracy about the Jubs was all about.

After auditioning Carls 902 & trackhorns last sunday i agree,,,,
The 402/69 are a bunch of malarky,, and with alot less DSP EQ

GREG,,,, Thats Klemintovich,s Jube bass (oak) bin with a martinelli
horn. Mike had the Jube top horn on for only a half hour,, It was so
bad sounding he put on his ol Martinelli horn,,,, He thinks DSP EQ
stinks,,(his words not mine) If you have to do that much to a driver
some thing is wrong,,(his words) Every driver need some compensation
but the 69 seems to be the worse of the lot. I know have the Top horn
from his Jube (sent to me last week) to see what the Big lie is
about,,,Looks like a bigass square conacle to me with a rounded mouth
lip,,dont look tracktrix,,, will back engineer that one,, Will take it
down to CID anechoic chamber next month and run some charts... DSP is
OK if the unit is low distortion,,, Ive never seen any EV product test
low in that catagory..

..... Horn is a stinko,,, I dont know who
the manufactur is but they should be takin out in the back
ally,,Horsewhipped,, and salt rubbed into the wounds,,,Left for the
rats to finish off.

Your Jub bashing was based on three wrong assumptions - Mike K did not have Klipsch Jub bass bins, 402 or 69. I think you owe Klipsch an apology.

Kudret

[ZAKO]

KUD,,,, yes I have heard the 402/69 no big deal,,,Never liked that 69 driver have to EQ the hiss out of them,, still malarky.. Yes Mike does have Jube bass bins,,, but not put together by the cine pro dept, Mike didnt like there sloppy work...His words not mine.

[mikebse2a3]

I've had the opportunity over the last couple of years to hear several two-way systems, and of course I have one now setup at my shop. As I'm listening to a two-way system, I can appreciate the smoothness of the high end with the lack of a crossover point, but I have a hard time with all the mid/upper frequencies coming from one point. I don't really know why that is. I have always thought I would like a two-way system better and I've always kept an open mind to any speaker design. Maybe it's just that I've gotten so used to hearing the highs from a separate driver.

I haven't seen much in the way of a open mind and I don't understand why you didn't choose passive to begin with based on your thinking.

If everything is right there is no reason why the mid/upper frequencies should be coming from one point passive or active. I don't know what but something just isn't right here Greg and I'm not saying you aren't hearing what you describe. If you are interested and want to please start another thread and tell us what equipment and how things are adjusted and setup at this time and maybe we all can understand what is happening to make them sound the way you describe. You know us Jub guys aren't so bad if you would give us a chance.

I'll keep enjoying the Jubs, even with them being only a two-way and with the "life" being sucked out of the music by all the processing.

Again no need for them to sound like this. Something is causing this Greg and again if you are interested I'm sure some of us would like to see if we can help figure this out.

Boy, the "Defend the Jub" crowd is so easy to get going.

The only thing that got this going was alot of misinformation which if left alone can become thought of as true.

Greg

Again Greg I don't know if any of us have the answeres for what you are hearing but there are some good guys here that would like to help if they can.

mike tn

[mikebse2a3]

KUD,,,, yes I have heard the 402/69 no big deal,,,Never liked that 69 driver have to EQ the hiss out of them,, still malarky.. Yes Mike does have Jube bass bins,,, but not put together by the cine pro dept, Mike didnt like there sloppy work...His words not mine.

More [bs] , innuendo and very obvious that you are trying to cause problems.

mike tn

[BEC]

Picture of the inside of Mike K's bass bin.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

I'm looking forward to building my own wooden tractrix horns with high quality 2" drivers and utilizing them within the tophats of the my Khorns. This is what drew me to this Hybrid Trachorn thread in the first place.

Greg

Greg,

Are you going to use the standard Trachorn equation or modify it? What frequency do you need to use (300HZ for a 400 hz cutoff)? I should be building a pair of horns this winter to finish and old Khorn project.

Thanks,

Chris

[greg928gts]

I'm looking forward to building my own wooden tractrix horns with high quality 2" drivers and utilizing them within the tophats of the my Khorns. This is what drew me to this Hybrid Trachorn thread in the first place.

Greg

Greg,

Are you going to use the standard Trachorn equation or modify it? What frequency do you need to use (300HZ for a 400 hz cutoff)? I should be building a pair of horns this winter to finish and old Khorn project.

Thanks,

Chris

I've built a prototype, but the workmanship is too embarrassing to show pics of! I just got my new bandsaw today, so I can cut the tops and bottoms the correct way. No doubt I could have made a pair and hacked them together, but I want to do it the right way. There's quite a learning curve to building a trachorn type mid horn out of wood.

I've been getting help from a friend on the equation and he's using a tractrix horn calculator, I can't remember which one right now. I guess I was too dense to figure it out for myself. Something about it just wasn't clicking in my brain. Now that I have plotted it out, with some help, I can see it clearly.

The space is limited in the Khorn tophat, so that had a lot to do with the final design. The cutoff is 240Hz, or about 1/2 octave below my crossover point of 400Hz. I'm incorporating the horn right into the baffle so as to maximize the mouth of the horn. I'm leaving room enough for a Beyma CP25 next to the mid horn and room for a BMS 4591 mid driver (without having to cut a hole in the drywall behind the Khorn).

When I build them I'll take pictures and post the results here. I think a lot of people would be interested in a 2" driver upgrade for Khorns. I'm looking forward to hearing a higher proportion of driver to horn.

Greg

[greg928gts]

I haven't seen much in the way of a open mind and I don't understand why you didn't choose passive to begin with based on your thinking.

Again Greg I don't know if any of us have the answeres for what you are hearing but there are some good guys here that would like to help if they can.

mike tn

mike tn, you really do take a lot of interest in everything I have to say about the Jubilees. Listening to Bose 901's and appreciating what they have to offer (however little that may be) is having an open mind. I have owned all kinds of speakers over the years, and that qualifies as having an open mind. I own Jubilees, and even with my small critiques about them, I've stated over and over again that I enjoy them for what they have to offer. Again, open minded. I don't need answers for what I'm hearing, but thanks for your concern. I understand exactly what I'm hearing from the Jubs. In fact I think I have a keen awareness of the reproduction of music on speaker systems that eludes many. I would submit that some here, including yourself simply don't understand what I mean when I talk about the "life" of the music that comes from a very simple, non-obtrusive signal path from source to speaker. I really don't mean that as any kind of a slam, it's just that it explains why some here seem baffled by my statements regarding overly processed systems and how they sound in comparison to a very simple system.

Not everyone has the background I do, having operated large P.A. sound systems for 15 years, but then later sliding into the audiophile realm (unwillingly I might add, since I never thought it would happen to me). I know what processed sound is, better than most. I understand what ten-cent electronics in the signal path does to the signal, I've done it and listened to it for years. I've also been dazzled by the jaw-dropping experience of SET amps on Khorns when everything comes together just right.

I'm not searching for answers regarding the Jubs. I'm having fun with them. They are currently set up in a small room in my shop, too small for them, but wow, I want to tell you, it's quite an experience being thumped in the chest by the beasts. I enjoy using the DX38 because it gives me flexibility that a simple system does not offer. I understand what the processing takes away, but I also understand what it offers.

Greg

[Coytee]

Greg, check your emails

[]

[tigerwoodKhorns]

The space is limited in the Khorn tophat, so that had a lot to do with the final design. The cutoff is 240Hz, or about 1/2 octave below my crossover point of 400Hz. I'm incorporating the horn right into the baffle so as to maximize the mouth of the horn. I'm leaving room enough for a Beyma CP25 next to the mid horn and room for a BMS 4591 mid driver (without having to cut a hole in the drywall behind the Khorn).

Thanks Gregg.Mine wil lnto be mounted in a top hat so I can use whatever frequency that I want (as lonmg as teh horn does not gte too big). What should I shoot for? One full octave below the cutoff of 400Hz? Is 300Hz ok?

I will assume from your response that you are using the Tractrix curve with no mods.

Thanks.

[mikebse2a3]

Again, open minded. I don't need answers for what I'm hearing, but thanks for your concern. I understand exactly what I'm hearing from the Jubs. In fact I think I have a keen awareness of the reproduction of music on speaker systems that eludes many. I would submit that some here, including yourself simply don't understand what I mean when I talk about the "life" of the music that comes from a very simple, non-obtrusive signal path from source to speaker. I really don't mean that as any kind of a slam, it's just that it explains why some here seem baffled by my statements regarding overly processed systems and how they sound in comparison to a very simple system.

Well aren't we special?

Give me a break. "I really don't mean it as a slam"

You assume alot Greg! For your info my Khorn based system for about 12 years was based on a very simple signal path. CD/Tube DAC into a passive volume control into a SE 2A3 amplifier. I know very well the strengths and weakness of such a system. As a matter of fact Greg except for a switch to the Musical Fidelity CD Player and the addition of a Cary SLP98L pre-amp this simple system was still what I was using on the KHorns when they were replaced with the Jubilees. I have gained in all the area's of realism and musicality since having done this and active processing is an important part of having acheived this.

Oh and by the way I have an electronics degree and worked in electronics for over 34 years. I have serviced, built and modified audio equipment both solid state and tube over most of those years so I might have some idea of what I'm talking about Greg.

The main thing though Greg is I'm not so full of myself that I think I can't learn from others or under estimate others abilities!

My mistake for trying to be of some help. So never mind since you have it all figured out!

mike tn

[ZAKO]

Mikebse,,,,Tell Valare Klipsch those Golden Jubs are induendos sitting in her house next to that Bosendofer grand piano. Same as Mike Ks

[mikebse2a3]

Mikebse,,,,Tell Valare Klipsch those Golden Jubs are induendos sitting in her house next to that Bosendofer grand piano. Same as Mike Ks

Well Maron last time I was there the Golden Jubs weren't (they were just an idea being talked about) but I did get to listen to the orginal prototype Jub with the K403 sitting next to the piano as well as see the beautifull Tigerwood Klipschorns in the living room. Mrs Valare was very nice and I did enjoy eating lunch with her and others at Amigo Juan.

mike tn

[ZAKO]

Yes very nice,,, That makes four versions ive seen,,, and we will see more,,, the Jubilee variations will go on for awhile...Like the early versions of the Khorn several versions by Paul and other versions by licenced Companys like Vitavox, & Brocenier and EV. THe Al trackhorn and other Top Hat carriage trade have kept the tweekers going and they will not be the last.

[greg928gts]

The space is limited in the Khorn tophat, so that had a lot to do with the final design. The cutoff is 240Hz, or about 1/2 octave below my crossover point of 400Hz. I'm incorporating the horn right into the baffle so as to maximize the mouth of the horn. I'm leaving room enough for a Beyma CP25 next to the mid horn and room for a BMS 4591 mid driver (without having to cut a hole in the drywall behind the Khorn).

Thanks Gregg.Mine wil lnto be mounted in a top hat so I can use whatever frequency that I want (as lonmg as teh horn does not gte too big). What should I shoot for? One full octave below the cutoff of 400Hz? Is 300Hz ok?

I will assume from your response that you are using the Tractrix curve with no mods.

Thanks.

One full octave below 400Hz would be 200Hz. It's probably not necessary to go that low. I was told half an octave was good, or about 300Hz. My friend chose 240Hz for some reason though, so I don't know. Somewhere around there!

I don't know how close to tractrix it really stayed. I think the way the mouth of the horn is, it might be cut off just a bit. I showed the calculations to someone and they said it almost looked exponential. It looks tractrix to me. I'm going to build it and hear what it sounds like. If I don't like it, I'll try something different.

Greg

[greg928gts]

Well aren't we special?

My mistake for trying to be of some help. So never mind since you have it all figured out!

mike tn

I really don't believe your intent was to help.

So you got your personal slam in at me. Are we all set now?

Greg

[mikebse2a3]

I really don't believe your intent was to help.

So you got your personal slam in at me. Are we all set now?

Greg

Thats because you really don't know me Greg so you just made an assumption which was wrong.

If you don't like personal slams don't slam others! Pretty simple concept huh?

mike tn

[sheltie dave]

Mike, he wasn't slamming you. We are big boys and some want to figure things out by themselves, using their expertise, or the expertise of those they already are working with.

It is akin to those of us not in the secret handshake club. Most aren't too worried we don't belong. You all don't need to slam us over there, and then come here for overtime work.

BTW, Carl's Martinellis and 902s sound tasty delish.

[mikebse2a3]

Mike, he wasn't slamming you. We are big boys and some want to figure things out by themselves, using their expertise, or the expertise of those they already are working with.

[bs]

It is akin to those of us not in the secret handshake club. Most aren't too worried we don't belong. You all don't need to slam us over there, and then come here for overtime work.

More [bs]

BTW, Carl's Martinellis and 902s sound tasty delish.

[Marvel]

I don't know how close to tractrix it really stayed. I think the way the mouth of the horn is, it might be cut off just a bit.

I have info around somewhere that indicates the last 20% isn't needed. I thought they meant the mouth and not the throat

If that is true, you could cut a lot of the mouth off. That would LOOK more exponential.

Bruce