ZAKO Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 After auditioning Carls 902 & trackhorns last sunday i agree,,,, The 402/69 are a bunch of malarky,, and with alot less DSP EQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blvdre Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I can vouch for the 902/trachorn combo as well (and have already in this thread), very nice sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I haven't heard the 902 combo but would like to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny's Jill Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Got my Trachorns from Gothover 2 weeks ago, I am using them on top of my Cornwall with an ESS Air motion transformer for tweeter. This combination sounds great, love the horns, a major improvement over the stock CW. Will post pics when I get a camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Craig, its nice to see you finally got on the forums...welcome... I am pleased that you like your horns. Did you ever change your crossover cap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny's Jill Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Craig, its nice to see you finally got on the forums...welcome... I am pleased that you like your horns. Did you ever change your crossover cap?If you didn't install it, it didn't get changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 After auditioning Carls 902 & trackhorns last sunday i agree,,,, The 402/69 are a bunch of malarky,, and with alot less DSP EQ Obviously Maron, you haven't been paying attention to the Jubilee threads. Don't you know that DSP and EQ are the future of horn loudspeaker design. [] How about this setup? Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 After auditioning Carls 902 & trackhorns last sunday i agree,,,, The 402/69 are a bunch of malarky,, and with alot less DSP EQ Obviously Maron, you haven't been paying attention to the Jubilee threads. Don't you know that DSP and EQ are the future of horn loudspeaker design. How about this setup? Greg THAT IS AMAZING! WOW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Just to clarify, those Jubs are not mine. Nice looking and I bet they sound awesome. No need for electronic crossovers, digital to analogue conversion, equalizers, etc... Just good simple horn design, really good quality drivers, and simple networks. The NATURAL progression of the Khorn concept. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Heh, heh, heh....... Wow - that horn is sure worthy to be on top of that bass bin. Martinelli? Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 GREG,,,, Thats Klemintovich,s Jube bass (oak) bin with a martinelli horn. Mike had the Jube top horn on for only a half hour,, It was so bad sounding he put on his ol Martinelli horn,,,, He thinks DSP EQ stinks,,(his words not mine) If you have to do that much to a driver some thing is wrong,,(his words) Every driver need some compensation but the 69 seems to be the worse of the lot. I know have the Top horn from his Jube (sent to me last week) to see what the Big lie is about,,,Looks like a bigass square conacle to me with a rounded mouth lip,,dont look tracktrix,,, will back engineer that one,, Will take it down to CID anechoic chamber next month and run some charts... DSP is OK if the unit is low distortion,,, Ive never seen any EV product test low in that catagory.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 I am happy that folks like the hybrid trachorn. It is certainly a beautiful piece of work. I have been unable to listen to one. However, there is some confusion regarding certain issues of the background physics. Please let me make several simple statements. 1. A standard tractrix expansion is not a CD horn. That is the frequency response off-axis will not be an approximation of the frequency response measured on-axis. A CD horn will have a similar response off-axis that it does on-axis. However the on-axis and off-axis response can not both be flat. This is where CD equalization comes in. This is nothing new and there have been many CD horns produced in the past (Manta Ray be a popular example) that also require CD eq. 2. There are reasons why it might be preferred to have the on axis and off axis response to be similar (IOW, there may be reasons to prefer a CD horn). I will not enter into that argument. 3. The K402 is a modified tractrix exapansion. One consequence of the modification is that the K-402 requires (as do other CD horns) "CD equalization". This EQ is not severe, rather it is probably a one or two pole filter to functionally create a rise in the response at the higher frequencies. So now the on-axis and off-axis responses are not only similar, but that are also approximately flat. On the K-402 with a given driver, there may be additional filtering applied also. Whether the additional filtering is "severe" or not (or is problematic or not) is in the eye of the beholder. 4. I do not believe the hybrid trachorn has a CD response (we would need to see the polars, and I have not seen them posted). As such it may have an acceptable frequency response on-axis, but it will (if it is not CD) have a drop at the higher frequencies as you go off-axis. That rol off (as you go off axis) is dictated by the physics. Again, whether this is problematic or not is in the eye of the beholder. 5. If you are using the the 902 and the trachorn together, in a two way system, then the roll off of the higher frequencies as you go off axis will be more problematic. Trying to get that much high frequency for a two-way system will be difficult. Someone implied that the this combo would not get "beamy" at higher frequencies in a two way set up. I doubt that, but I am interested in the measures. These measures (polars) incidentally are high enough in frequency that they could be measured outside and would not require the use of an anechoic chamber. 6. If you are concerned about introducing distortion when you use a DSP processor, this may not be a significant problem. In terms of harmonic distortion (and probably intermodulation distortion also). The real culprits are most likely going to be in the speakers (drivers, horns) and not in the electronics. This is a broad statement, and I am sure there are cases where this might not be true (perhaps some non steady-state distortions). So I am not convinced that DSP is an absolute evil. Although, exaggerated use of DSP (especially try to give huge amounts of gain at low frequencies) will cause headaches. BTW, if you are unhappy with the output section of the DSP unit (EV, behringer etc), these can be replaced with transformer outputs (which, of course, can be implemented in a good fashion or a bad fashion) 7. Question: if DSP is not used, is there any attempt at trying to achieve time-alignment in your systems? Again, the advantage of time alignment is in the eye of the beholder. 8. While this last statement is not specific to K-402 vs hybrid trachorn, DSP solutions (i.e., active crossovers) encourage the use of bi-amping. This in itself can provide a couple of other benefits (and is not necessarily going to break the bank). Before dismissing the alternative horn designs (because of the "evils of EQ"), you may want to consider these issues outlined above. Again, I am not criticizing the hybrid trachorn. But its distortion and polar response are unknown to most of us. These two, of course, may or may not be important to a given listener. Good Luck, -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Yes in the EYE of the BEHOLDER alot did happen... Klemintovich was quite angry,,, So my evaluation will go on as to why,,??? DSP is a good way to correct time alignment,,,, If the unit is working correctly,,, The EV unit will be checked over.... as well as the driver,,as well as the horn. I,m well aware of the CD designs. Mike paid alot of money to come up with half of a speaker,,,, He now does not trust there claims and is why its in my posetion to find out why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Martinelli and I exchanged some emails back when I built my Jube bass bins. He sent me a curve of that horn with the BMS coaxial driver. It went down to 300Hz although I remember him stating he liked two way with the XO at 600Hz. I do believe the curve was on axis. Maron....is the coaxial BMS driver on there? Is the passive w/o EQ...or "notches". jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 ...If the math is bad and the sound is good, you might be an audiophile..... Or a redneck. Man...that might have to become my signature......good quote. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 JW,,,,, the last i heard he was useing The BEYMA 750 driver,,, But he also has the BMS,,, He has several xovers,, I dont know what he has strapped on this week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Mike had the Jube top horn on for only a half hour,, Wow! A whole half hour?!? Surely everything must have been working perfectly... There is so much that could be wrong in the scenario it's not even funny... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 I was thinking the same thing. Good grief. Nice post Tom. The majority of titanium diaphragm 2" exit drivers have similar response curves and require roughly the same kind of correction. I don't think there's a hill of beans difference between them. The fellow I sold my Jubilees to is extremely happy with them. He has AK-3 Klipschorns in the same room and says the improvement is significant. I think the 402/69 combination is outstanding, but it is very unforgiving with poor source material. The problem with audio forums is that everyone is an expert, which is why I have always made an effort to try things for myself. Experience has shown me that as well intentioned most are, they are often wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Yes the mutual admiration Jube club came to a halt on this one,,,,Klementovich has a really good ear..and would not take him long if something is wrong,, So many things could go wrong is right,,, I will check everything twice, Yes some of us are experts and very well intentioned,,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Dammit. We need some more info here. You guys drop a beauty bomb on us w/o details. I would reallyreallyreallyreally like to know this Martinelli/Jube setup. Driver and passive info????? jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.