msutton Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 hi all, i am fairly new to the forum. i have been doing some reading on the klipsch jubilee and was hoping some of the members here with knowledge of these could help answer some questions i have pertaining to these speakers. basiclly, i will be building a set or two of jubilees coming up and was curious about different aspects of this speaker.i enjoy my home theater among several hobbies(rf83's,rb35's, no center channel yet, svs pb12+2, svs b4+ coming soon!)..but my true passion is furniture making. i built a pair of klipsch la scala's for a gentleman awhile back and now he is inquiring about me building several more pair..along with a pair of khorns and some jubilees. i am familer with khorns, although i have never built a set, but the jubilee was a speaker i was unaware of and i have been doing as much reading and research as i can...found lots of good into here. from what i read it is one of the best sounding speakers ever made. anyone who can help me with any part of these questions please feel free to chime in. -i read the speakers cost around $7000 a pair...what is the cost of the 402 horn and k-69 driver alone ordered from klipsch? and is there any other driver than the k69 that can be sustituted that sounds better at a similar cost? -i have read that there are plans/parts list of the componets available for the passive crossovers to these speakers..where can i find them...what is the cost to build the crossovers diy...and is there anyone out there such as deanG that sells them ready to go? -i followed along with the build of the fellow board member @jubilee.ws and it was very informative. are the plans for the jubilee posted online or available through any of the members here? -and finally, my customers interest in buying multiple sets of speaker cabinets from me has me thinking i am pricing my work to cheaply. what do members here feel is a fair price that i should be charging my customer for a pair of finished cabinets* for the la scala's.. for the khorns, and the jubilees? note* by finished cabinets im refering to only the cabinet itself in a finished state, either a black truck bed spray on finish or a wood veneer..price not to include driver, horn, crossover etc...he plans to supply those items.. -final note. thank you for any info you can provide me..here soon i will post some pictures of my progress. i also have in works a svs b4+ sub that i am starting on (4x12" drivers!) regards, matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuyOtherSoundEquipment Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Building Jubilees yourself? I'm not at all familiar with such a phenomenon.... But I'm sure someone on the board can lead you in the right direction, or give you some kind of information. Good luck with your project.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 i also have in works a svs b4+ sub that i am starting on (4x12" drivers!) I'm curious.... is that another clone (for lack of better word) of something they're currently producing? I'm not too familar with SVS although I suppose I could get off my duff & go look [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Does your customer want to buy Klipsch clones from you because your prices will be lower than buying from a Klipsch dealer? Since your cost will be just your time and the necessary materials, without paying for the decades of science and engineering that went into these speaker designs, your clones could sell for less. However, Klipsch is not a long-gone company, it's still in business, so copying the factory's patented and trademarked designs for commercial purposes is quite possibly illegal. There are forum members who do restorations of classic Klipsch speakers, but manufacturing copies is a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msutton Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 1. If you build them, they will not be Klipschorn Jubilees. correct.in no way have i claimed to be associated with klipsch in any way shape or form..in the end these speakers will be missing the "klipsch" emblem...not sure that will effect the sound though. 2. Klipsch does not sell parts to hobbyists or kit builders. You would not be able to obtain the K402 horn, woofers, or K69A drivers. No way, these are sold to commercial cinemas and in a select configuration, to Forum members. Individual components are not for sale. i assume this is possible because i followed a post where another member obtained the k402 horns, k69a drivers..and built his own bass bins.. so i gather its not exactly as impossible as you say. i have ordered a replacement woofer for my rf83 from klipschparts and did not run into the "high security" you speak of..infact i assume klipschparts is in the business of ...selling klipsch parts??? im not trying to obtain any parts anyhow since i wont be supplying any of those parts as i stated...im only building the cabinets. god forbid..i inquired about the msrp price out of curiosity. 3. The Klipschorn Jubilee is a current product (KPT-KHJ-LF) and as such, is probably a protected design. -the klipschorn and la scala are also currently sold by klipsch and there are plenty of post of members building those speakers..the jubilee is different in some way? 4. The Jubilee bass bin is extremely complicated to build, nearly as complex as the Klipschorn. -i gather extremely complicated for "you" to build... this would actually be fairly easy on my scale of projects or i wouldnt bother with it. ive spent more time on jewelry boxes than the time it would take me to build the jubilee bins. "nearly as complex as the klipschorn"...do the angles make it complicated for you? its nothing more than a large cabinet...and i dont mind angles. precision is something i enjoy..i appreciate my starrett tools and my incra table saw fence and ls positioner router fence both adjust in 1/1000 of an inch increments..so i think i can manage. 5. Your 'customers'? Is your first post on the Forum a statement that you plan on using the company's design for your own profit? -my "customer"...not "customers"...im not advertising on craigslist. this is a gentlemen whom ive build some custom furniture pieces for in the past and wanted me to build him some la scala cabinets by his blueprints which i was glad to do. again..im not building "speakers" for him just the cabinets. as i stated he is supplying the drivers, the horns, the crossovers (everything that makes a "speaker") that you say is impossible to get......im only dealing with the wood. i myself am a klipsch customer (spent a fair amount on the rf83's) and am not looking to cut into klipsch profits by building a few pair of cabinets. -i appreciate your input but did not find it very helpful. id rather focus on replys that have less opinions and feelings and more actual data and information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msutton Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 i also have in works a svs b4+ sub that i am starting on (4x12" drivers!) I'm curious.... is that another clone (for lack of better word) of something they're currently producing? I'm not too familar with SVS although I suppose I could get off my duff & go look svsound.com makes home theater subs. i currently own a svs pb12+2 which has 2 x 12" drivers. this last fall they offered a driver upgrade to owners for a fair price and i upgraded to the new 12.3 (not much difference) driver. my brother owns the same sub and also upgraded to the 12.3 drivers leaving me with 4 of the 12" svs drivers. the b4+ was a passive svs sub that used 4 12" drivers in push pull arrangement and puts out some quite impressive numbers. it was only made for a fairly short peiord of time...2002-2004 i believe and very few were produced. so yes, in short this would be considered a clone..and a perfect use to the 4 drivers i have left over from the upgrade. heres a link: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_3/svs-b4-subwoofer-9-2003.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Well, you have certainly got off on the wrong foot. There is a very long continuum. At one end are DIYers who are interested in horn loaded speakers, interested in learning about them, and perhaps interested in modifying them for cosmetic, sonic, or engineering reasons. Then there is the opposite end of the continuum. Those folks do not have the DIY mentality, are not interested in learning, and in some cases are simply interested in making a profit from someone else's hard work. We are having trouble figuring out how far toward the end of the continuum you are. If you were building these for yourself, many would have probably been happy to talk to you. Under the circumstances (....building for your "customers"...), I doubt that you will get much advice. These are not trivial cabinets to build (getting proper drivers, crossovers, tweeters etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msutton Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 tom, i agree...i think i did get off on the wrong foot. not alot of warming replys to start off. as far as my interest in horn speakers i have done some research..resulting in the purcahse of my klipsch rf83's rb35's and hopefully soon rc64 center channel.i am a diy'er like many here but not looking to redesign this speaker..just simulate it. i do plan on building these bass bins, not completed speakers, for a single customer and not customers as i stated above..i should go back and correct that...and while im at it will probably build a set of bins for myself. if they are the best sounding speaker many have ever heard then i wouldnt mind owning a set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msutton Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 Does your customer want to buy Klipsch clones from you because your prices will be lower than buying from a Klipsch dealer? Since your cost will be just your time and the necessary materials, without paying for the decades of science and engineering that went into these speaker designs, your clones could sell for less. However, Klipsch is not a long-gone company, it's still in business, so copying the factory's patented and trademarked designs for commercial purposes is quite possibly illegal. There are forum members who do restorations of classic Klipsch speakers, but manufacturing copies is a different story. islander, i gather my customer does want to buy the bass bin cabinets from me...not completed speakers... because the price of assembling the speakers himself with klipsch parts would be much much cheaper than purchasing a complete set of speakers new from klipsch. price is often the reason you see many of the DIY projects out there. infact, like many here including me i doubt he could afford to pay 7k for a set of these. so i suppose his option was to pay klipsch 2k or so for the horn/driver/crossover and buy the cabinet from me...or simply buy nothing from klipsch. **However, Klipsch is not a long-gone company, it's still in business, so copying the factory's patented and trademarked designs for commercial purposes is quite possibly illegal. There are forum members who do restorations of classic Klipsch speakers, but manufacturing copies is a different story. -is this what you meant to say when you were replying to luvmykhorn building his own khorns/jubilees in this thread??: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/105161/1061619.aspx#1061619 luvmykhorns: Ha... Turns out I'm just going to build a whole new pair i know this has been brought up quite a few times on this forum and well yes i have read most of the threads, and know these are tough puppies to piece together, but I've got a 30 year veteran in cabinetry on my side that i demoed my current pair to.. lol i love peoples expressions btw, when they hear them the whole jaw drop thing is great... anyway hes got the tools and lots of experience, mind you though I'm not letting him build them I'm letting him tell me the best ways to go about construction. I'm going to be using the plans found herehttp://www.volvotreter.de/khorn.htm, along with the pictures he provided shouldn't be to hard. -your reply...islander -I'd second the Jubilee option. After all, they are PWK's (and Roy's) crowning achievement. See how to build Jubilees here: http://www.jubilation.ws/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 tom, i agree...i think i did get off on the wrong foot. not alot of warming replys to start off. as far as my interest in horn speakers i have done some research..resulting in the purcahse of my klipsch rf83's rb35's and hopefully soon rc64 center channel.i am a diy'er like many here but not looking to redesign this speaker..just simulate it. i do plan on building these bass bins, not completed speakers, for a single customer and not customers as i stated above..i should go back and correct that...and while im at it will probably build a set of bins for myself. if they are the best sounding speaker many have ever heard then i wouldnt mind owning a set. Hi msutton It's really none of my business but I do care about Klipsch the company and the many Klipsch employees that I've met going back to the mid 80's and many whom I've met through Pilgrimages and other Company Events and this Forum! So please understand where I'm coming from when I say that if people want to see these wonderfull products such as the Jubilee continue to develope and grow then they have to be willing to invest in them and support the people of Klipsch and encourage them to research and develope their ideas for the benefit of us all. This feeling of being a part of Klipsch is what you see over and over on this forum because they have made us feel that way! It's what makes many of us go to the pilgrimages and invest our time and money to do so because over all these years they have made us feel like we count and are more than just a customer to them. So we all have to draw lines that we want cross and though you might think differently and your free to ignore me but I believe when you take a Klipsch(or anyones) design and sell it for a proffit then you have crossed a line. It's not really about if your few copies might financially hurt the company but instead more about an individual's morals of what is right and wrong and to copy a current design to sell to even one person is IMO crossing that line. Anyway wouldn't be better if you have the skills to build complex horn structures that you come up with your own designs and sell them to your customers instead of taking from another? mike tn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msutton Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 mike, i understand where you are coming from and agree with many points you have and i appreciate your position. i truthfully care about the klipsch company as well and have supported them financially with my purchases i would guess with more dollars than most on this forum.i would love to design my own speakers and build them to sale..but this was a one time project that i was doing for a past client, not a long term business venture i am looking to undertake. i work full time in radiology and hope to start medical school this upcoming year...so this was just a spin off of my woodworking. i have to say though its a bit hypocritical for some of the posters here who have encouraged other members of this community on their building of "clones" of klipsch speakers in other post ..and then they turn around and lecture me on the morals of doing so ..simply because these cabinet bins..not even speakers... are not for me but for a client...and im not refering to you when i say that mike. while doing searches online..most of the information i found on klipsch DIY projects came from this community. blueprints, pictures, how-tos, diminsions, links, etc..and thats why i posted these questions here. in many post i read how this gentlemaen had built his own jubilee bins...http://www.jubilation.ws/...and for some reason you just dont see the moral issues come up in that lengthy post..but encouragement and praise. infact, hes taken down the site and posted : "Deleted due to unethical people trying to use my work for profit! " in all kindness, please feel free to put your site back up to show others your workmanship...i didnt even bookmark it. pictures dont do alot for me..i was looking more for measurements/blueprints. it does appear that he put alot of work into those jubilee bins and was rewarded in the end...i wonder if he sleeps at night? you know i think in the end i think i will just tell this guy that these jubilees are just too much trouble to build! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 See how to build Jubilees here: http://www.jubilation.ws/ Ah, he's removed the link. The Khorn is a complex cabinet, with compound angles, having a bifurcated path vertically and then turning to finish horizontally. The Klipschorn Jubilee keeps everything in the horizontal plane, which you would have gathered form the other threads and photos. This makes it a much simpler build and allows the bass extension to go higher into the mid bass region. There are enough parts around that the older designs can be built and stuffed with parts pretty readily, and I don't think most have a problem with folks doing that. There have even been a couple on here who have built LaScala cabinets and sold them, and I certainly don't remember them catching much flak for it. They didn't do it for a business, but for the fun of it. I know they didn't ask for much for the cabs. But those ar the older designs. The Jubilee is the newest incarnation for what most would call the heritage series, although meant for the cinema. If I had the $7k, I would get a pair in a heartbeat. But I can't right now, so I will learn and tweak my LS. Welcome to the forum, btw. I would love to see some of your cabinet work. Seriously. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 msutton. I initially didn't want to post here. Your later posts seemed to show interest in Klipsch and I want to share a thought with you. I built the second set of clones to my knowledge. There was a nice guy named BIGDNFAY or Darrell who built the first clones that I'm aware of. The site that you quoted was the third set of clones. That builder too has the appreciation of an accomplishment for personal reward only..... Anyway, when BIGDNFAY built his...it was a great thread as it went into a lot of bass horn concepts and investigated into the AES article written by Roy Delgado and Paul Klipsch. About 1 year later....I built some as well. I have a thread too on the build. Now my thread was an interest in bass horns in general and it morphed into a jubilee project. I'm proud of this thread as it was meant to further investigate bass horn design and try to Understand the the development of the Jubilee. When I did the build, I didn't even know what woofers went into the jubilee. I just knew the T/S parameters quoted in the article. Then I took the information and came up with many sketched-out plans on paper. It took me awhile. I would measure angles by hand and try to get an understanding of principle. I have no CAD program and that would have taken away from the "logic" of what I was doing. Once I came up with what I thought would make a great bass horn, I felt confident that I would get great results. Before my build, I actually had the chance to measure (tape measure) the real jubilee as it sat in front of me. I was proud to see that my estimations were very close and was proud of what I came up with. So you know what, I stuck with my plan and built them. It was a forum project to understand bass horns in general and to build a jubilee in principle. I left any temptation to copy Klipsch. I actually had one almost built before I found out what drivers really went into the bass bin. You are welcome to browse this thread below. It usually isn't found because the title says nothing of the jubilee. The thread is very long but is very educational. You will see that the master contributed to the thread for interest sake and that was a joy. Never was there an attempt to pry his brain to scoop Klipsch. As more clones come about....the builds will get closer and closer to the real thing. But that "closeness" is up to the eagerness of the builder. I say read up and build some clones for yourself...and see if you can build something that gives you a satisfaction in sound. The thread does not have a blueprint. It does however give ideas of an assembly with logic. What I know of the potential "real Jubilee build" is to stay in my head and there for education purposes only to apply to any possible novelty bass horns I make in the future. http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/77247.aspx jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 i would love to design my own speakers and build them to sale..but this was a one time project that i was doing for a past client, not a long term business venture i am looking to undertake. i work full time in radiology and hope to start medical school this upcoming year...so this was just a spin off of my woodworking. Hey matthew good luck with medical school! and stick around and show us some of that woodworking. mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I can't believe you spelled Roy's name wrong....[] Very well said, jc. I think most here have done the same, to learn more about horn design. You have constantly encouraged others, asking questions and wanting to know what is possible. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 oppss. I am a dufas. Maybe my edit is correct? jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 this was a one time project that i was doing for a past client, not a long term business venture i am looking to undertake. i work full time in radiology and hope to start medical school this upcoming year...so this was just a spin off of my woodworking. msutton, you may think forum members are over-reacting to your posts, but reading your first post made it appear that you are a professional woodworker planning to manufacture Klipsch clones and looking for advice on pricing. As PrestonTom put it, you really did get off on the wrong foot.As for Jubilee pricing, the present price is a real bargain, since a more stylishly-finished version of that speaker, with that level of performance, should sell for more than double what Klipsch charges. Even rigma, who built himself a beautiful pair, commented that it would have been simpler and not much more costly to just buy a pair of Jubilees from the factory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLSamuel Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 Matthew, Good luck in medical school Don't be so shocked by the initial responses - you're initial post made it sound like you were wanting to build Jubilee clones to sell - the response was actually pretty subdued - the Forum members arer highly respective and protective of Klipsch - many of the Forum members and long time Klipsch employees are good to very good friends - and like family in many cases - and long time Klipsch fans - many Forum members lovingly restore and tweak older Klipsch speakers often bringing old beaters back up to spec including first rate veneers and finishes - so when it sounds as if somebody wants to make copies to sell - expect a strong backlash Though I've not tried to price out such a thing - you might not save much money by building your own Jubilee bass cabinets at least not if one would figure the time involved as they're pretty complicated - though it sounds like you be up to the task I don't think the factory is able to put nice finishes on the Jubilee bass bins at this time they may be able to sell bass bins ready for veneering or adding a nice front - sorry no wood horns are available but adding a pretty front to the factory bass bins might be a viable option. I think the large wooden horn I've seen in pictures is the K-403. I suppose one could construct a wooden horn but that I imagine would be very difficult to get right Most people use the K-402 I believe (the large horn) and I think a few use the K-510 (small). Personally, in my little exposure to both versions in a bad environment, I preferred the K-402 and think the K510 looks comically small on the Jubilee bass bins. I think someone ordered a pair built from marine grade plywood for outdoor use (covered patio at a night club I think). My dream speakers have long been Klipschorns... long beforer I ever heard a pair ...and now that I've heard a few Klipschorns they are still my dream speaker, just modified to Klipschorn Jubilee, not the "prettiest" Klipschorns ever produced but take the Klipschorn to the next level As Marvel said, do show us some of your work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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