joessportster Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 what i mean to ask is if your volume knob resides around the 8 or 9 o-clock at the most because that is your preferred listening level with the gear you have ( ie... the gain on the gear combined = comfortible listening level at 9 0-clock) or if you were to get another well respected pre with lower gain that would cause you to run the volume knob at a higher level forcing the amps to put out more to get to the same listening level. i have read that the latter of the 2 scenarios is better for sonics and i have actually experianced this b-4 but will hold my opinion on that experience for now to see what is the prevailing opinion here Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenderbender Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 I'm no expert, but I find that your second scenario holds true. Just take a guitar amp (tube) with High gain pre section you cause your power section to overdrive giving that fuzzy distortion rock guitar.......thats why rock guitarists use Humbucker style pick ups ...for their higher gain and ease of overdriving. so to a lesser extent I would assume that a lower "gain" preamp would make your power amp "work harder" but ultimately giving less distortion... Again I don't know what the heck I'm talking about, but it sounds logical....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted October 12, 2008 Author Share Posted October 12, 2008 i dont know anything about guitar amps but it make sense that your amp would be designed to operate in a certain range otherwise why have so many different output power ratings, i have heard that 50 to 75 percent is the optimum range for an amp to be working i am thinking the pre i am using right now has to much gain as it is very loud at the 9 / 10 o-clock position, but i also dont want to get into a situation where i want to crank it up and be clipping the amps because i dont have enough gain (and b-4 someone chimes in with buy a more powerful amp, i am happy with the sonics of my existing amp, and i also have no intention of switching speakers right now for more efficient) my question lies with the belief that the pre-amp gain is where i need to look for symmetry Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 It totally depends on the specifics of the input/output stages of the various components in the signal path. There is all sorts of crazy math involved with optimizing the gain structure. I know that's a boring textbook answer, but the implication is that the "best volume positions" on different systems is going to be different...so trying to draw general rules of thumb from limited samples of data kinda has no meaning to someone else trying to optimize their gain structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 There's no holy grail on this, in past decades often refered to unity gain. Basic considerations is output distortion if it's not linear to output levels of the driving device, input distortion associated with mix match input drive levels, and if we are talking tube gear, what implications are the associated with microphonics in front end devices which would tend to benifet by shifting gain in later stages devices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted October 12, 2008 Author Share Posted October 12, 2008 just spoke with someone tons more knowledgeable than i, he states ( and i now agree) that infact the pre does not affect the amp at all, the amp is running full gain at all times but instead the pre is altering the signal coming from the source then sending that on to the amp that puts its full signal on the the speakers, he does however say that as far as contact points on a volume pot go the best contact is achieved at the 12 o-clock posistion (more surface to surface contact could mean less loss of signal, now i know the reasoning behind stepped attenuators) of course i am sure fritz and who are correct tons of equipment out there which would make it improbable to have a blanket statement cover all variations still it is interesting to ponder, and get others experiances Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 Joe, let me twist your question a bit... Is there a certain voltage that a speaker is "best" operated in? Sort of like a car and its torque curve... If you give (say a pair of Khorns) .00001 watt, it will sound nice but won't punch you in the gut. Feed it 300 peaks and (forgetting about your ears) it will certainly punch you in the gut. Perhaps if you feed them 32.1203782 volts (and of course, I'm just making that up to have a reference point) they will operate with minimal distortion, best signa/noise and dubious specular deflections! (I just made that last one up so I'd sound like I know what the heck I'm talking about!!) Perhaps I might clarify why I ask this... I seem to recall once Roy saying something about the Jubilee "needing some volts" to get going because it has TWO drivers its pushing. I certainly might not recall his comment correctly and don't mean to put words into his mouth. If the Jubilee needs "some" volts to get the woofers dancing, then that inferred to me there might be an optimal range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 The amp may have better specs at higher settings but you don't have much control over that because volume levels need to be in the range you need, not what works best for the amp. Loudspeakers on the other hand need a certain amount of volume to sound right. I call this the point when they become "linear". Like Coytee said, some need a little juice. Every speaker is different but most sound best when they are set to a nice comfortable volume level. The amps don't seem to be that particular, they run from very low settings to clipping with a fairly linear sound. Thanx, Russ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted October 12, 2008 Share Posted October 12, 2008 This is an interesting topic. Practically every preamp/amp/speaker combo I've ever had.........have almost always been different as far as gain settings. I've just done my best to let my ears judge what sounds right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Mine goes to eleven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted October 13, 2008 Author Share Posted October 13, 2008 all good points, coytee your description made sense to me by volts i assume we are talking about the power the amp is sending to the speaks, which manufacturers tell us are measured in watts per channel, i will be running a little test as i have a friend that is gracious enough to allow me to audition some of his spare gear, so i picked up his joule electra la 100 mk 3 pre and will pit it against the emotive erato the erato puts out around 19 db of gain and the joule around 13 (numbers are from his memory, so dont quote me on this) but it should be an interesting afternoon, i will report my feelings on the comparison Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Great thread; intersting discussion!! My amps are all identical, except for the volume pots (type 0 has one type, and type A has a slighly different one), so I compare them to the speakers they are driving at an indicated "dB" level. 10:00 o'clock on some, 9.5 o'clock on others. 11 sounds really good, but will get deafening on some, but not on others. Klipschorns very efficient, Heresy's not so much.. I spoe at length with a tech regarding the volume pots. He said that the "best volume" was not what they cared about, but how the pot controlled the volume for the owner. Some amps (mine...) the volume comes in fast and after 10:00 o'oclock, tapers off. the pots are marked by levels of -dB, starting at -70 (0 volume, or about 7:00 o'clock), somewhere around 10:00 o'clock, they are at -32 dB, and then the graduations are slow all the way around to 5:00 o'clock (full volume). The tube amp only has tick marks, but it is of the same manufacture as the ss's. In that case, about 9-10 o'clock is similar SP levels. On some previous amps I had, the scheme was different. SP came on slowly, but after about 10:00 o'clock, the "slope" or apparent increase in SP started coming in alot faster. That gave much better control over lower volumes as opposed to the less fine control at lower volumes on the current group. Just my observations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Joe let me put one more twist into your post, my pre has a switch for adjusting the gain as well as the volume. I can set it on any one of 5 different settings, and the only thing that changes is the position of the volume knob. On the first setting the volume knob goes around to 3:00 for my normal listening level, on the second setting it goes to 12:00 for the same volume and so on. On the last setting the volume knob only goes to 9:00 for the same level. Also a couple weeks ago I asked a very similar question to the local audio electronics expert about opening the volume pots all the way, vs partially and he said it makes no difference other than keeping the contact surface clean and undusted. He also said that one should a couple times a month turn all of your control knobs all the way back and forth to prevent build up of dust and dirt on the contact surface. Hope this helps. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 he said it makes no difference other than keeping the contact surface clean and undusted I'm being a bit of an *** here but if you kept your contact 'undusted', wouldn't that then mean it's dusty? [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 my pre has a switch for adjusting the gain as well as the volume. I can set it on any one of 5 different settings, and the only thing that changes is the position of the volume knob. One of these may result in a better sound quality to your ears in your system, as I think some volume controls subjectively sound better in a part of its range. Another possible benefit is lowering the total noise+signal output of the preamp, which can lower the audible noise from a high-gain amp and high-efficiency speakers. The old Marantz 7C and 7T had controls on the back to cut the output level for that purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Larry, I never really paid alot of attention to the position that much, I pretty much leave it on the first setting. Sounds fine to me nneed to go milling around. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 mdeneen ( An issue that sometimes arises with some tube preamps is shown in this diagram. If the stage preceding the volume control has a high output impedance, the volume control will have to be large - like perhaps 500k ohms.) I was looking and describing the most obvious first. Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted October 13, 2008 Author Share Posted October 13, 2008 wow great response's learning alot, mark do you know of any manufacturers that use the design you discuss Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereohermit Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 The audio taper pot , as used in a preamp vol control, should ideally be used in the 1;00 to 4:00 range. All audio taper pots will sound worse at lower settings. Trouble is, gain structure considerations are usually aimed at systems with 88 -90 db speaker sensitivity.With horn systems and typical pre-power gains, one usually finds they are running their vol at 9-10 o'.clock. I ended up going with 10 db gain on the pre, and my ave. level is about 2:00... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joessportster Posted October 13, 2008 Author Share Posted October 13, 2008 stereohermit did you find you had better sonics ????? i did a comparison of 2 pre's today a joule electra la 100 mk3, and a emotive audio erato both pre's are stellar performers but i believe i have to start a new thread about symmetry in a system because the joule pre paired with the joule stargate amps was doing some very nice things. i dont want to say anything bad about the emotive because i know it is a superb pre-amp so i am attributing some of the gains to symmetry (just when i think i have a handle on most of what this hobby has to offer i get a curve ball like this and have to re-access my thinking) i have read tons of discussions about symmetry in the past and always figured i had it for the most part, but today has opened a new era in my audio pursuits Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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