oldtimer Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Sure, whatever you say, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 sigh................ And then there's the lowly digital amp. Sadly destined to be an orphan with no one either hating on them or defending them. Tom I will defend them!! The lowly amp that Maron was referring to earlier in this thread is a 10 watt Sonic Impact Super T BUT HERE'S THE KICKER....I tried it with the upgraded stand alone power supply (PSU) from the Kingrex. Amazing what a different, stout, stand-alone PSU can do for a digital amp. I had similar improvements as David Kan did with the Kingrex. Look here: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/kingrex/t20.html Next, I have a Trends that I'm going to try with the PSU. Should be fun. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 sigh................ And then there's the lowly digital amp. Sadly destined to be an orphan with no one either hating on them or defending them. Tom I will defend them!! The lowly amp that Maron was referring to earlier in this thread is a 10 watt Sonic Impact Super T BUT HERE'S THE KICKER....I tried it with the upgraded stand alone power supply (PSU) from the Kingrex. Amazing what a different, stout, stand-alone PSU can do for a digital amp. I had similar improvements as David Kan did with the Kingrex. Look here: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/kingrex/t20.html Next, I have a Trends that I'm going to try with the PSU. Should be fun. Carl. Carl, I couln't find the review but scroll down the 6moons page to the reviewers section. Check out "Marja and Henk." They look like creepy co-habitating college professors who spend their abundant free time writing audio reviews and seducing overweight gothic girls who are taking their class on Caligula... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 That's a riot Chris! And you gave us the tame version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 At 98 db efficiency, you need a 20 dbW amps (100 Watts), if you are going to be able to hit 118 db peaks. ONLY true when playing a SINGLE FREQUENCY. Play two different frequencies through the same amp at the 2.83 VRMS (1W each) and you're going to need 5.66 VRMS (4W). In this example, the crest factor is 6dB. So to hit 118dB peaks that consist of two frequencies, you're going to need 400W with a 98dB speaker. Let's just say music has a lot more than one frequency playing at a time...though it's not as straightforward of a calculation since all the frequencies aren't playing the same amplitude. One of the benefits of bi-/tri- amping is that it spreads out the crest factor. So if you've got two frequencies, but each frequency is played through its own amp, then each amp only needs 100W to go just as loud as the 400W amp. Hmmm....somehow I think I might have done my math wrong...but gotta run so I'll come back to this later.... OK, so I'm only off by 3 db, which is the difference between 200 and 400 watts.............big deal. I do use Tri-amping. Each woofer section (2 per channel) has it's own 200 Watt amp (active lowpass, no chokes), then I run about 80 Watts from the receiver into the mid bass, midrange, tweeter through the passives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 sigh................ And then there's the lowly digital amp. Sadly destined to be an orphan with no one either hating on them or defending them. Tom I will defend them!! The lowly amp that Maron was referring to earlier in this thread is a 10 watt Sonic Impact Super T BUT HERE'S THE KICKER....I tried it with the upgraded stand alone power supply (PSU) from the Kingrex. Amazing what a different, stout, stand-alone PSU can do for a digital amp. I had similar improvements as David Kan did with the Kingrex. Look here: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/kingrex/t20.html Next, I have a Trends that I'm going to try with the PSU. Should be fun. Carl. Just to prove my point I will be using two of the cheap ones (Sonic Impact) hooked up to an Optima Blue Marine battery on my 4 MWMs cabinets. Since I never see more than 1W peaks on normal listening, this should blow people's minds. Had mine tested at Klipsch HQ in Indy and we concluded that PWK would have like these amps, since they fulfilled his"good 5W amplifier" wish (actually 6W/ch at the low THD end). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 OK, so I'm only off by 3 db, which is the difference between 200 and 400 watts.............big deal. So what happens at 4 frequencies, or 8 frequencies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatever55 Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Funny, not ONE of you guys took my point seriously about rating amplifiers in dbWatts. The difference between a 5 and 10 watt amp, a 50 and 100 watt amp, and a 500 and a 1,000 watt amp is EXACLY the same...............only 3 dbW. JC's monster amps are only 3.8 dbW more power than the original 500 Watt amplifier that started this thread. Care to figure out how much more $$$ that extra 3.8 db costs? I think JC put them next to the LS II's just for scale. I can't imagnie him wanting to use those amps on those speakers. So if you want it DYNAMIC and louder, you can only get it with higher efficiency, and that means horns if you want to get db/Watt speaker efficiency out of the 90's and into the 100's. At 98 db efficiency, you need a 20 dbW amps (100 Watts), if you are going to be able to hit 118 db peaks.With 108 db efficiency speakersyou will only need 10 dbW (10 Watts) to do the same job.So the 98 db guy (Cornwalls come to mind) will need that 100 W amp, The all horn guy will need only 1/10th that amount of power, but he will also get about 1/30th the distortion according to PWK. With my 4 way all horn stack, I have a level of clarity and detail I never had, even with modified Khorns and LaScalas. I find myself at about 80-85 db at my listening position, with a measured 0.1 Watts input and I DO have 100 Watts per channel (only because it's what came with my receiver), so it even meets Dr. Who's 30 db headroom criteria, but I doubt if I ever even came close to that. This is the lowest distortion setup I have ever had and the micro detail I get is better than headphones. Rating amps in dbWatts would be an easier way to deal with the power requirement issues, but as long as Marketing has more clout than Engineering, it will never happen. OK... What power would be required if you are say crusing along at 5 watts and you have a musical peak,,, say a loud bass drum hit or something... how much more power would you need to reproduce that. Would a low power amp be able to produce that in the time required ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Musical peak like a drum whack probably would not be notuced as much as you think,,,But a loud sustaind note would.. It depends if the distortion rises with the music at that time. A good example is on the latest Stereophils CD...It happend there and was not noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 20 db for headroom for musical peaks would mean that you would need double the wattage for each additional 3 db, or: 5 watts x2x2x2x2x2x2 = 320 watts available for peaks. This is why in PA or industrial applications, it's typical to see 4x the speaker's rated power available for each speaker. Better to have plenty of clean power available for peaks than risk damaging components with distorted clipped signal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Ive seen speakers catch fire that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Ive seen speakers catch fire that way. But how did it sound? Bright? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 I had a tripath amp which I hated after a month. I tried to like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Seti, was your Tripath one of those $100 Teacs from a while back? Just curious because if so, I agree with you. I was not that fond of the Teacs as well - the highs were too rolled off and the bass less than stellar. In comparison, however, the upgraded model of the Sonic Impact amp (Super T) and the Trends 10.1 sound pretty different (much better IMHO) from the Teac even though based on a similar design. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Seti, was your Tripath one of those $100 Teacs from a while back? Just curious because if so, I agree with you. I was not that fond of the Teacs as well - the highs were too rolled off and the bass less than stellar. In comparison, however, the upgraded model of the Sonic Impact amp (Super T) and the Trends 10.1 sound pretty different (much better IMHO) from the Teac even though based on a similar design. Carl. Yeah I got the trends 10.1. I tried the upgrade which resulted in me killing it. I had McIntosh mc30s just before and after I picked up the onix sp3. So that was my comparison not really fair but not my thang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Ive seen speakers catch fire that way. Only with fools behind the mixing console. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael hurd Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 I have seen an amp @ 550 wpc clip with dynamic drum recordings that have an average power level of 5 wpc. It takes an aweful lot of power to reproduce transients, as Colter mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWL Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 It takes an aweful lot of power to reproduce transients, as Colter mentioned.Even with efficient speakers that are 100+ ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 The short answer is yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Yup !!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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