garyrc

Yes, if the comparison set-up isn't double blind, or at least single blind, how will anyone know that the difference isn't due to extraneous variables such as 1) the appearance of the equipment 2) the reputation of the equipment?

I think it was Hi Fi Revised 1958 edition by Martin Mayer. As I remember, it was a paperback with good photos and illustrations, very clearly written and fully understandable to me as a school kid, providing some technical background and history, and presenting what Mayer thought of as the best choices at various prices, but my memory is a bit rusty when it has to reach back 63 years! It mentioned the Klipschorn (ingenious, but "too efficient" ??? -- another vague memory), JBL Altec, Marantz, McIntosh, H. H. Scott, Bozak, Leopold Stokowski, Perry Como, etc. I rediscovered the book decades later -- it had been relegated to my parents' basement and looked remarkably like the Dead Sea Scrolls, so I discarded it. It's fun to remember The Way We Were. I maintain that if 15 ips, half track stereo tape was the source, the best sound of then was about the same fidelity as now, making some "audiophile" sound in ultra snooty high end stores sound pale, dead, and un-dynamic. As the late Art Dudley put it, " ... what did we give up to gain such easy access to [the virtues of modern equipment]? Natural-sounding dynamics. Impact. Pluck. Snap. Body—especially body. And soul." Martin Mayer was a man of (popular) letters. He wrote many, many books. In the introduction to one, he stands in front of a mirror and addresses himself as Fyodor. Need I say more? Here is Amazon's offering. No your eyes are not deceiving you; the new hardbound choice is $920.99 Hi-Fi, New Revised Edition Hardcover – January 1, 1958 by Martin Mayer (Author) 4.0 out of 5 stars 1 rating See all formats and editions Hardcover $920.99 2 Used from $9.51 2 New from $768.57 Paperback from $20.00 1 Used from $20.00 Here he is in his writing room; it looks like mine.

A few hours sounds good to me, BUT ... One Klipsch engineer, whose name I forget (not Roy) said, speaking generally, "15 minutes." I've heard other people say "30 hours," but never "400 - 500 hours." Some manufacturers do recommend very long break-in periods. I'm suspicious that they are hoping that adaptation occurs, when, despite your best intentions, and intense self examination, you are fooled into thinking speakers sound better after you are good and used to them. This might protect manufactures against negative first impressions. That being said, back in 2005 I put AK5 updates in my Klipschorns. The kit (from Klipsch) included redesigned crossover networks with very different slopes, and new midrange drivers and tweeters. Yes, they sounded a bit different, and a bit better on some program material, right away. But I burned them in with all kinds of music, at concert volume, for about 2 weeks for an average of 3 hours a day. That would be about 42 hours. So help me, they improved, sounding smother, and better in all those wacko audiophile ways, like "better integrated," etc. Placebo effect is real. I, too, eagerly await your impressions.

@Chief bonehead , are you reading this? What frequency range is the passive radiator tuned to? Would it work in a room like his? What about just turning up the bass control a bit (if there is one). Thanks! As to a kick drum:

It's a sacrilege. I've never tried it, but I remember a caution in the old Martin Mayer book (1958!) to not "overdamp" a speaker enclosure with too much glass wool or cotton wool. I have no idea whether this is or not. By the way, until Star Trek misused it in the series beginning in 1966 (and ever after), it was "damping," not "dampening." It is still "damping" in orthodox circles. For instance, a power amplifier doesn't have a "dampening" factor, unless it is incontinent. Given the small panels, I wouldn't expect much in the way of resonances. Did you hear resonances before stuffing it? Call me naive, but I would think PWK would have added an inexpensive item like stuffing, if it would have helped. 1983 was late in the Heresy I's history, so there would have plenty of time (26 years) to discover and remedy an inexpensive limitation. The Heresy I's were discontinued 2 years later. Weren't the midrange drivers labeled or stamped PWK in 1983? Given no stamp/label, and the huge (10 dB) elevation of the mid and tweet (before you corrected it), I can't help but wonder if they are stock Heresy, or modified by the former owner. If it were me, I'd consider leaving the stuffing in just one Heresy, take it out of the other, and AB them (with the preamp switched to mono) with rambunctious, bass heavy music, followed by pipe organ, and seeing which sounded better, while noting any resonances. Or, use a frequency sweep for the woofer only. Then, for the sake of counterbalancing to eliminate order effect, switch the wool to the other enclosure, and AB them again. Good Luck! Be Safe! 😷

Location: Oregon. So far, our home relies on public power, with moving water the largest single source. Many residents (who aren't under the trees, like us) use solar. It seems like this is increasing. There are some wind farmers, who were pissed a few years ago, when the state told them they had an oversupply of electricity and it would not buy energy from them for a while.

I would think that even the sealed back ones would benefit from the boundary gain of a corner. Tight in your corner, one side of each Khorn would have an 18 to 20 foot extension to the horn! You could try a very slight toe-out v.s. a snug fit. Be sure to include both conditions, with identical bass heavy music, and a test tone recording or REW (Free, but you supply a calibrated mic that is USB ready -- $80 to $100).

Ah! Please let us know what you decide. Good luck!

Two different posters: @angelaudio and @rankaudio To angelaudio: I once had Klipschorns just about that far apart (8 feet), and they sounded fine, to a listener sitting dead center. For others, the sound was good in all ways except imaging (but still sufficient for me at the time). Are you expecting to move to a wider room eventually? My move to a larger room (4,257 cu. ft., and wide) was richly rewarded. How high is your ceiling? See Chris A's corner horn acoustics thread. It might be possible, but outrageous, to put the Klipschorns on the long wall of your room, pressed tightly into the corners, if you can afford to put in a horn loaded center channel (Belle or La Scala I, II, or AL5). I'd say they need to be snugly in the corners, unless you build artificial corners, and you put them in those. The K77 tweeters in the Khorns are probably good enough a bit off axis (but will show some attenuation above 10K Hz), to allow you cross their aim somewhat in front of you. If not, can you put your center listening chair (or center of a couch) at 8 to 9 feet away? Don't put too much absorption in the room, but do put 2 feet of absorbers on the side and front walls where a yard stick placed flat on the front of the Khorns will touch the walls, at the height of the "top hat" of the Khorns (midrange and tweeter section), and for 2 more feet into the room. Diffusion is O.K. Showing the acoustical absorber (the lower one) in the larger room:

RIP Bob! To the family, he helped me a lot. Bless him and all of you.

Good point. What to do? Listen to music Read Write Paint & Sketch Take photos Listen to music while reading or writing or painting or sketching or taking photos. Hike Explore new neighborhoods, towns, cities; photograph interesting buildings and houses and get arrested for "casing the joint." Explore new wilderness areas. Frogs will fall silent when they realize you are close. Don't surprise a cougar (they wander through our town, but hey, L.A., too. "We were here first!" -- A. Lion Woodworking Astrophotography Collect microscopic life, and photograph it through a microscope. Big prints look good over the fireplace -- protozoa, the smallest metazoa, etc. Rotifers look great over the fireplace: Meditate Contemplate the Universe, deism, theism, quantum mechanics, string theory, M theory. Classes are a great place to meet people. I met my wife in one, and we have been (mostly) joyfully together for 51years (married for the last 46).

Not boring. Keep typing and we'll listen. "... some of the old crew didn't make it." I lost several, also. None of them due to illegal drugs, and all but one used. One was murdered at home, near the Oakland-Berkeley line, by person(s) unknown, and discovered by another friend -- a fire fighter -- who responded to a 911 call. I sort of misplaced Jesus at about 20 something, and located him at 44. Beethoven's 7th, Rene Leibowitz version, played with 110 dB peaks lifts depression for some (me). Solo dancing through In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida works, too. Having a dog or a cat that dances helps. I once saw myself as the man who loved cat dancing. My great aunt wasn't sure why she was still around, either, at about 70. She lived until she was 103, bringing many people enriched lives. This, despite many health problems. And after losing her husband in a freak accident, after a period of grieving, she became a happy person for decades. 60 is plenty young to find a second or even a first calling --- listen for yours.

I have Khorns with a Belle between. Audyssey improves the system, increasing clarity, but AFTER the Audyssey run, I turn up the bass a la the Harmon curve, and also the treble just a bit, contrary to the Harman curve. It sounds very dynamic. Audyssey Flat takes the worst kinks out of the curve, then I adjust it to taste. The K77 series tweeters [stock in Khorn & Belle] need a boost above 10K; if you have tone controls that have 1 dB increments you might be able to fine tune it AFTER running your room correction, restoring the sparkle. Mine go out to 15K, (or 16K, or 17K on axis, with Audyssey flat and treble control at + 3 dB, but our ears don't, so no matter).

I have "heard" that too, from a fire arms expert, but he was not a hearing expert! I have also "heard" that the belief in question comes from a confounding of the variables of duration and Sound Pressure Level, an SPL that is far higher than anything on the OSHA charts. All single shotgun blasts are short, but their SPL is HUGE. There is no ethical way to separate the two for an experiment. Here is what the military says: 100 – 120 decibels: For example, a bulldozer, impact wrench, or motorcycle 120 – 140 decibels: Such as, a rock concert, auto racing, or a hammer pounding a nail 125 – 155 decibels: Like, firecrackers or fireworks, or a jet engine 170 – 190 decibels: For example, a shot gun blast or a rocket lift off. Compare with the measly 115 dB at the top of the OSHA Chart. From: Department of Defense Hearing Center of Excellence High Decibel Levels - Hearing Center of Excellence - Health.milhttps://hearing.health.mil › Prevention › Causes-of-Injury There is also something in the giant paperback 50 Seminal papers on Human Hearing, but I don't have a copy.

Yes, but: By the way, I have boosted Common Man BASS by 9 dB, and got 25 watt peaks, but the wattage meter may have ballistics that cause it to read low on instantaneous (1/3 second) peaks. Some read 13 dB low on the leading edge of peaks. The Khorns have more bass than the Belles, as do the Cornwalls, so they would need less bass boost. The Belles have cleaner bass than the Cornwalls, though I'm mot sure about the Cornwall IIIs. Any and all boosts should be done carefully, with an ear cocked for speaker strain distortion. Speaking of ears, With the exception of things like gunshots heard close up (because they can be so really loud), duration really counts in assessing potential hearing damage. That's why music that is "all loud," like some Rock, should be played at a lower level. After playing every kind of drum, as well as great gong in orchestras for more than 9 years, I could still hear to 16K (alas, age has caught up with me now). Here is what OSHA says:

Good advice, but beware the C28. The C26 preamp @Cicerogue got is fine, but the C28 has a long history of the right phono channel failing. I got tired of mine going in for repair at an official McIntosh repair station, so at a point when it had been freshly repaired, I took it to the biggest McIntosh dealer and booster in the SF By area (right under the mooring of the SF Bay Bridge, on the SF end -- at least then), who bought McIntoshes to check out and sell used. They called out a diminutive master tech from the their repair department, who said he needed to test the right phono channel, because of the high failure rate. Sure enough, my newly repaired C28's right phono channel failed, right in front of me! AFAIK, McIntosh has a very, very good reputation for being trouble free, but I got the one model that was a turkey. As for the C26, the manual gives a great deal of info. The action of the bass control looks ideal to slightly EQ the Belles. I hope McIntosh still provides these graphs with new models. http://www.berners.ch/McIntosh/Downloads/C26_own.pdf

Welcome to the forum! I can see you have high standards since you have a Goldring Moving Coil. The Belles are so sensitive ("efficient") that, normally, they don't need much power. I use a Belle as a center channel between flanking Klipschorns in our home theater (also used for music listening, i.e., Klipsch's Wide Stage Stereo configuration). In our 4,257 cu. ft. room, at 13 feet, our single Belle produces 107 dB (2 dB above THX fs for frequencies above 80 Hz) with an input of 16 watts. So, surely a good 100 watt "RMS equivalent" per channel amp, at 8 Ohms, with low distortion (<0.08 THD?), 20 to 20K Hz, with both channels operating, should be fine, right? Maybe, maybe not. Even if we had a complete set of distortion figures for an amplifier, including IM, TIM, etc. (almost impossible to get unless some magazine has done a bench test), different amps can have different interactions with a given speaker, and your ears may pick up things that a bench test might not. My NADs (several C272s, 150 w.p.c., now discontinued) sound fine, but the very best solid state sound I ever had with the Khorns was with a Luxman L-580 integrated amp, also now discontinued. It had the most versatile and best sounding tone controls I have ever encountered, which could come in handy with Belles, and sure did with the Khorns. Just in case you are one of those who eschew tone controls and attempt to playback flat, hoping to hear music the way the musicians heard it, or how it sounded from the audience, or in the control booth, etc., please see all of Chris A.'s posts on de-mastering on this forum, starting with "The Missing Octave." Generally speaking, records are not flat. Rock, pop, and metal often have a substantial amount of the bass removed, so the sound can be crammed up against fs. On vinyl, even classical is often attenuated in the bass, in order to make it fit on the record, because bass takes up more space. Is this what "FLAT" looks like? From There Is No "There" in Audio By Amir Majidimehr Figure 4: Survey of 20 Dolby certified dubbing theaters showing wide variation in response. So, if you can listen to a candidate amp, at home in your music room, with your Belles, that would be best. Some stores will let you do that. Speaking of a missing octave ...people often say the Belles roll off at 60 Hz or so, but mine actually has a little peak at 60 Hz, and still sounds robust at 40 Hz (but is about -5 dB, according to REW). That's with the Belle flush mounted in the wall; I would think that against a wall or in a corner would come close to that. But, sometimes, it would be good to be able to turn up the bass on the Belles. A 6 dB increase in the bass would require multiplying the amp power by 4, so that need for 16 watts becomes 64 watts. Another 3 dB gets us to 128 watts. Fanfare for the Common Man on Crystal Clear direct to disc sounds great that way! I would expect either McIntosh, or a modern Marantz to sound fine. I would bet on Luxman, but that's likely to bust your budget.

We lived with 2 channel TV for years, in two houses, and it was fine, BUT with Cornwalls that far apart, with the couch that close (as it should be, for a big picture), the people (except the one dead center) might not have dialog centered. If you do this, can a center speaker be placed above the TV (or below?). Hopefully, it won't have a stray magnetic field distorting the picture. Maybe that is a thing of the past (?). There would probably be a center channel amp in your son's AVR. It would also allow Klipsch "Wide Stage Stereo" for his MUSIC. Since he is now a home owner, not an apartment dweller, he could really rock out (or toccata and fugue out, as the case may be). To become the President of the "man club," if and when finances permit, he could get a third Cornwall, with an acoustically transparent screen that comes down in front of it, and a projector on the rear wall. Like many members of the forum, I enjoy spending other people's money. Either way, without a subwoofer, be sure the the AVR's subwoofer output is set for OFF, or NO, and that the front speakers outputs are set for LARGE, or the bass may not be sent to the Front Left and Front Right Cornwalls, as well as a center, if any.

Interesting that Robinson, his wife, and Sam Tellig all said La Scalas are "Fun." Well, they are, and so are Khorns, Belles, and probably Jubilees. And guess what all those speakers have in common, other than being (largely) a PWK design!

I'm glad you will continue to participate here. I enjoy your posts. I wonder why it was "reason unknown to me" ... I would think that "a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes." I fully understand that Klipsch is free to do what it likes with its forum, but just "firing" someone as a moderator is puzzling.

If the recliners and sofa are for your Home Theater or Music Room, you may want to: Avoid reflective leather or the artificial equivalent because something shiny will reflect the high frequencies back at your ears too soon. Cloth, or a cloth cover, quilt, or throw-over may help if you really want leather. This is especially important if you have a room EQ device like Audyssey or Dirac, with the microphone positions where your head(s) would be. It's possible that the farther apart the audience members are, the worse the imaging/soundstage. Make sure the recliners provide a comfortable position that doesn't put wearers of bifocals or trifocals so far back that they end up looking at the screen through the close-up/magnifying area of their glasses.

I'd advise using a whole, matched La Scala. We have a Belle Klipsch (designed to sound similar to the LaScala) in the center, sunk into the wall to flush mount it. It works great! Since it was going into the wall anyway, creating more room to the rear (in our case, in to a bump out, sticking out on the other side of the wall), we built a new top hat with the longer K401 mid horn, so the timbre would be more like that of our flanking Klipschorns. We have an acoustically transparent projection screen that lowers in front of where the Belle Klipsch is hiding behind the wall covering grille cloth. The Belle is EQ'd to compensate for the wall covering grille cloth and for the screen. That makes it very slightly bright when playing music, rather than running a movie, but it is fine, and the EQ is above 10K Hz, where some of the family and usual guests have attenuating or absent hearing. It's a story as old as (audiophile) time: by the time you can afford good speakers, your hearing is rolled off a bit. 😐 Lacking all that, a properly designed ported or sealed large DIY box with a big speaker in it might work well. The parameters are online somewhere. It should be floor standing with your top hat on top, or on top of your display (or behind an AT screen, if you have that). You really can't put a 400 Hz crossed over unit "somewhere else," because you would have at least two octaves of bass that the audience could easily locate ("Hey, the bass part of Sam Elliot's voice is coming from over "there!"). Most X overs to a sub, for instance, are 80Hz or below, where bass is more non-directional.

Me too.

I like the K77 tweeter in the Cornwall I, and elsewhere, such as in my Klipschorns. I have both Khorns with K-77s, and Heresy IIs like yours. Neither sounds better in the tweeter range to me, both now, and back when I could hear 20K Hz. The K77s sound rich, clean and detailed. Several writing here like the Crites version better, but a few don't. Frequency response probably isn't as important as distortion levels, within reason. Distortion figures are rarely published. Klipschorns (with K77) typically have very low distortion. Direct comparisons are difficult to come by; most (including the following) are what statisticians call "free floating." But here are some figures at very high volume -- 105 dB at ~14 feet, THX full scale (fs) for the loudest peaks for sound higher in pitch than 80 Hz. 2% was taken to be the level at which the distortion is becoming audible. Speakers IM distortion at 105 dB at ~ 14' (fs) Harmonic distortion at 105dB at ~ 14' (fs) Klipschorn 2.00% Becoming Audible 0.25% AR 4-way AR 98RS 2.7% Audible ~3% Audible Fried Studio 4 10% Audible & Annoying 4% Audible Platinum Studio 2 7% Audible and Annoying 1.9% Becoming Audible From reviews by Heyser, Keele, Jr., and others. .. In looking at K77 curves, you will probably be looking at Electrovoice T 35 curves, because the K77s are highly selected T35s. Klipsch would order a bunch of T35s, and run curves and other measurements on them, and keep the best to become K77s, and send the rest back to EV. So, the K77s should be the cream of the crop. Here are some K77 curves. I believe a Cornwall I crosses over into the tweeter at 6K Hz, so the graph is of interest around there and above. The red curve is a K77 that came out of a Klipschorn. They were plotted at different levels only to allow you to read them clearly. Here is one I ran, with 1/3 octave smoothing. In case you can't see it well enough, it crosses the line at 12.44 KHz, and ends at 17K (the 1 in the numeral 17 is cut off), down about 4 dB. Hear is a histogram of a KEF studio monitor. KEF is one of the most respected speaker makers. !5K here is down about 5 dB. See what happens when it hits just about 16K: Now, here is what may happen when you get into a room -- just in the bass--at least they claim this is typical room response: Here is a full range example with studio monitors in a presumably a good control room, before treatment, By Jesco in Acoustics insider: LEFT RIGHT Now here are 2 elite loudspeakers, in a listening room, but spatially averaged and with 1/3 octave smoothing. Wilson Sophia Series 3, spatially averaged, 1/3-octave response in AD's listening room (red); spatially averaged response of AudioNote AN-E/SPe HE in AD's room (blue). [Stereophile] Let's look at the top end. The Sophia is down about 5dB at 11K and about 6.5 dB down at 12.5K. True, it springs back up at about 14K, the is about 5.5 dB down at 15K. And at the 20 K you wanted? It's down 28 dB. This reputed to be one of the best speakers in the world. Back then you could have it for about $17,000 for a pair. To be fair, many reviewers want the high frequencies to drop at the top of the treble. Some get upset if it doesn't, or label the speaker "Bright." Others advocate the Harman target curve in which the bass is much louder than the treble. Most slopes I've seen have the loudest bass 9 db louder than the highest treble. In the one below, as they say, "after equalization" it's more like 10 dB, with 16KHz 15 dB below the loudest bass.. In experiments, listeners tended to think such a curve was FLAT and NATURAL. With my Khorns with the K77, I like the bass about 7 dB higher than the treble, but I usually don't curve the treble down at all. You can use absorbers, diffusers, bass traps, Helmholtz Resonators, electronics, etc. to fix much of this, but then you'd be down the rabbit hole, for sure.

Me, too ... many happy hours. In the 1960s, students, who could only work part time, and at near minimum wage, could afford to grab a snack at many fast food outlets. McDonalds had the worst food. Quick-way was better, as was Doggie Diner, Taco Bell, and 4 blocks down the hill from my place, Hambricks 1/4 Pound Hamburgars -- A cheeseburgar for 70 cents. I used to walk there at 2 or 3 AM -- no concern about crime at night. One night I was very sick with the stomach flu, but walked to the Cine 7 to see the last night of Ingmar Bergman's Through a Glass Darkly. I stopped by 1/4 Pound on my way home, and wolfed one down. Two blocks later, a friend who knew I was going to see that film, came out and said, "How was it?" I vomited all over his lawn. "Worst review ever," said he. Friends from the Oakland neighborhood and I would take the bus to UC Berkeley for many events, including Albert Johnson's class on film musicals. He ran every clip imaginable, and we got out at about 2 AM. The last bus left at 1:05 AM. Imagine my friend's father driving out -- in his pajamas -- to pick us up. Normally, our bus transfer point was Mayfair Market at MacArthur (pronounced "MuhGarthur" by the kids) and Broadway. Malls were becoming centers of discourse, and all-channel nets, like the agoras they were, There were so many fascinating things inside, that buses could be missed. In the late '60s there was a record store in Mayfair run by "Eidetic" Gene, who knew obscure records you might want by number. There were huge posters of John Lennon and Yoko Ono, nude, full frontal, and the of the burning Bank of America in Santa Barbara (Isla Vista), also full frontal. Earlier on, the malls were swarming with Irregulars,, if you were there at the right time. At both Mayfair and Rockridge, we had the preacher lady who would point at people, or wheel on them, following their passage past her, perfectly panning, with that finger aimed between their eyes. She would yell "Bull Shittim," and then declare, "You don't know what Shittim is! When she tried that on me, I said, "Isn't it a place in the Bible?"' She leaned toward me and whispered the secret truth in my ear, "A tree, too ... " Several Irregulars were to be seen all over the Bay Area. Long before jogging became popular, there was the individual we called "The Walker." There was no mistaking her. She had a distinctive, longish face, pale, despite what looked like sun damage, and walked looking straight ahead, or slightly skyward, and never seemed to see anyone else, or her surroundings. She walked at a steady pace through the Berkeley campus, South Shore Center in Alameda, Mayfair, everywhere. I once saw someone walking determinedly up Carson St. above Tompkins. Carson is one of the steepest hills in Oakland. Naturally, it was The Walker. The first Trans I ever knowingly met (1960s), Carol, frequented Mayfair, and a good number of other places. She was arrested from time to time, but was friendly with and vouched for by, the local merchants and security guards. The Mayfair mall's Theater 70 actually had Cerwin Vega's for Midway (1974 version) as did the Rockridge Center theater for Earthquake, shaking up nearby shoppers in the earthquake prone Bay Area. The food center at Mayfair rolled up its interior sidewalks at about 10 at night, but it had a tasty variety before that, seasoned with the occasional fly, and, you could buy mercury defiled swordfish at the meat counter. For good food after hours, you had to go to Doggie Diner.