I just bought my first set of Belles! What amp for under $1500 do you recommend?

[Audible Nectar]

It was the Belle Klipsch that got me into serious 2 channel listening. I always thought that if I only had a pair of Cornwalls that I would be eternally happy and would never need anything else. But a funny thing tends to happen when you hang 'round the forum, like getting too many good ideas on how best to find audio bliss with these beauuuuuutiful speakers. The Cornwalls weren't enough....and by way of a perfectly executed forum deal ended up with a pair of Belle Klipsch (in this case, walnut).

I started out powering those with a McIntosh MC250 - just the amp and a CD player using the gain controls as volume for the system. It was well apparent that the Mac was a good match for the speakers....albiet a bit "sterile" sounding. A McIntosh MX-110 (preamp tuner combo - tube unit) fixed the sterility problem, giving the system a very well rounded and full sound, being very easy to listen to and very enjoyable. At that point I had spent about $1500 - and could have stopped there and had a pretty good system. I would have little reason to complain whatsoever.

But then I got to playing around with tube amps and discovered possibilities and improvements beyond what I ever thought possible. For ME, it was a fundamental change in the way I approached that Belle based system....it was like going from two dimensions to three. Tube amps on these speakers is a WHOLE new ball game. And this all coming from someone who wouldn't even consider tubes on Heritage - went a whole audio lifetime (20+ years) without ever hearing tubes on Klipsch. I was STILL sold on Heritage....but imagine feeling like your speakers got twice as good as you ever thought they were. I do not feel that the added monies in tube gears and tubes were as much an investment in those gears as I think of them as "for the speakers". The Heritage will take you as far as the gear will allow you.....and while there are limits to the capabilities of the big Heritage, most have NO IDEA how far away they are from those limits until one attempts to find out just what those limits are. When I first got my Belles, I hadn't a clue. If this whole post screen represented the body of knowledge there is to know about the Belle Klipsch, what I really knew about them when I first got mine would be represented by the period at the end of this sentence. I thought I knew. Uhhhhh.....not really.

What I found to be my best guide was my own ears. Now tubes might not be all to you that they are to me - but you'll never know unless you investigate. I would strongly recoomend acceptance of any offers to show you what these systems are capable of. And in the meantime, there are solutions at every price level to help guide you along any level of investment you might want. I never assume one's stated budget is final - mine sureashello wasn't.

FOR STARTERS:

I think the perfect "investigator's unit" re: tubes for newbies is one of the Scott integrated amps. A well rebuilt "NOSValves'd" unit can do much to tell you whether you like - or don't like so much - what tubes can bring you. An average $650-700 can get you such a unit around here in time, and can be sold back with minimal loss if you don't like. It's a REAL good place to start, with minimal long term risk to your wallet. If there's a "gateway tube drug" here on the Klipsch forum, this would be it.

Depending on your "response" to such a unit, we may consider a few "forks in the road" for you, depending on what you want/prefer/like/don't like from there. You could go "moderate", simply keeping the Scott, or possibly upgrading some.....maybe a tube preamp with a nice Mac, B&K, or similar warmer SS amp, for the $1500-2K ballpark - and if you end up biting the whole hot dog you could opt for a really good front end: like MC-30s and a C22, NOSValves KT88 power amps and a JM or Mac or Cj or a host of other good preamps out there. The NOSValves VRDs and JuicyMusic preamps are CUSTOM, tailor made solutions made JUST for Klipsch Heritage owners...and I can throw that kit on any big Heritage and drop jaws with any musical preference. I've made several increase budgets from 2K to 4.5K in a real hurry doing this.

Regarding tube "involvement": Yeah, sometimes tube ownership involves a little "fiddling" with a pesky tube or two or other issues. However, investigating such gears for the issues that bring about the occasional maintenance helps a great deal. Replacing a tube isn't a big deal, for example, and knowing a specific gear's "idiosyncracies" and meeting those needs can go a long way towards a good relationship with your gear. Some gears become hellish when tubes fail, some gears are "tube hungry" - others not so much. Not all gears are created equal, so we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater here.

All of which is to say, there is a solution here for you at any price point that will suit your taste, it's a matter of matching that solution up for you. What should be understood more than anything is the capabilities of the Belle Klipsch that you now own. NOT investigating these things would be a disservice to your ownership path with these speakers, and you owe it to yourself to find out what you can really do with them. You aren't "required" to go "high end tube", but you should understand what your choices really are and check them out.

And if you did wanna go on the cheap while you investigate, the H/K 430 isn't a bad solution for a short term way to get the Belles playing music (as well as a good "spare" to keep in the closet). The old H/K amps always did sound respectable on the old Klipsch too.....but as they say, you can do better long term.

[pjpmd]

I'm in Bloomington, Indiana. I bought the speakers in Milwaukee. Thanks for everyone's help. there are some strong opinions here, huh? Haha.

Pete

[pjpmd]

Yeah, that is the set. Yes, they are in walnut, not cherry. I realized my mistake after typing that initially. You are right, they ARE in mint condition. I couldn't find any flaw with them. So you think that was a fair price? I was bidding on the 2003 Belles from South Carolina in unfinished oak that sold just before mine did for around $2600, but I got outbid at the last minute. They were 2003 models I think. I then saw these and wanted to be sure to get them, as mint Belles don't come up for sale very often, so I put in a max bid of $3100, and ended up getting them for $2617.89. The seller then took 2% off for paying with a cashiers check (he would have taken 4% off for cash if I could have brought it to him within 2-3 days from the end of auction, but I couldn't get up there then). I think mine are are prettier than the 2003 unfinished oak ones, but they are 20 years older....from what I read here, some of the older ones are better than the newer ones??? Oh, and some people were asking where I'm from. I live in Bloomington, IN

Pete

[khorn51]

Threshold made some great amps back in the 80's.

The Threshold s150 would make a real nice amp for your klipsch, I see one on ebay right now.

If you can find the Threshold fet 2 preamp that would be a match made in heaven.

I find theshold amp one of the last good deals on very nice amps now, buy them up before ther words gets out.

Nakamich back when they on top of the analog tape world loved them so much they used there design for there amps.

I also like scott 299, Marantz tube mcintosh mc 30 tube amps .

[pjpmd]

Thank you for the offer. I'm a doctor, not from Maryland. I live in Indiana now. I just moved here from NYC last year. I did my internship and residency there for 4 years. I had a girlfriend who lived in Wash DC, so I used to take Amtrak from NYC to DC all the time, and I remember stopping at BWI. Anyway, thank you for the offer.

Pete

[Cut-Throat]

I owned a pair of Belles and drove them with many different types of Amplifiers. SS, PP tubes, and SET amps.

My preference is for SET amps by a wide margin. I had 300B, 2A3s and 45 amps - I prefer the 45 amps.

MY suggestion is to listen to as many topographies as possible and then pick what you prefer. There are a lot of forum members in your area that would probably give you a demo. IF you are in the Minneapolis area I would gladly give you a demo of SET amps, Push Pull, Solid State, Digitial amps.

One thing you could do, is buy a cheap vintage receiver for $100 and then spend a year or so narrowing down your choices of your 'ultimate amp' -

[pjpmd]

here is the link to the ebay page with pictures of my new Belles

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280293347395

Pete

[Audible Nectar]

You got your money's worth. Original packing, too. NIIIIIIICE[]

[Tarheel]

Very handsome speakers Pete! Seller has 100% positive feedback.

Take a look over on audiogon.com under integrated amps in the classified section. In your price range there are vintage and new amps that should make those Belles sing. Cayin A50T integrated amp 36 watts at $880 or the Quicksilver Audio Mini Mites (power amps) with a Quicksilver line stage preamp (both tubed) would work well. No affiliation with sellers.

[joshnich]

Those are some fine looking Belles!

Audibles outline of a reasonable path is right on. Very close to the path that I have been down. After having sold the tube equipment I had used for a number of years ( a pair of MC 30s that I bought for I think 150.00 for the pair in 1970) I was using a pretty nice parasound set up. I bought a pair of Klipsch Heritage and it was off to the races. First up was a Fisher 400 reciever ( that I still own) next a NOS Valves 299b - Incredible piece of equipment that sold me forever on tubes. Next up A Cary Rocket 88 which I upgraded to the "R" version. McIntosh MC225s (which I still own - Ill not make that mistake again). With the MAcs I started using a Juicy Music Peach preamp which blew me away. Next and I think final stop is the pair of Juicy Music Pcat class A monoblocks that are to my ears the cats meow. I have since changed out the peach to the latest version of the Blueberry and again couldnt be happier. Enjoy the journey - that's the fun part.

It has been said here before, but I would also look into updating the crossover. Take your time on that however and do some research using the search function on the forum. The greatest bang for the buck upgrade imho is a crossover upgrade/update. But that's just me others may disagree.

Josh

[pjpmd]

Thanks Josh.

Where does one get the crossover upgrade/update? How much does this cost?

Pete

[seti]

Thanks Josh.

Where does one get the crossover upgrade/update? How much does this cost?

Pete

Bob Crites can help you with the crossover update but you might want to listen to the AB networks for a while first. I just put the AA/A style crossover in my Belles but I'm not sure about yours. Mine were 1981 Belles and came with AA style crosovers. Can someone explain the differences between AA and AB?

http://www.critesspeakers.com/

[Doc Robin]

What's up Doc?

I Vote McIntosh with a remote!!!!!!! Later Bill

[DU73]

sorry Pete - I dont mean to hijack your thread. And by the way - no way you paid to much IMHO - they are in mint condish.

But just in case anyone was interested in the below post..

Pete - congratulations on the Belles. They are such a beautiful speaker. That is if you can call a speaker "beautiful"

on ebay australia, actually this is the first I have ever seen them on ebay here, a nice pair is going for AUD $3000 and no one has bid on them yet. Are people crazy.. what a price. If I didn't have my speakers and I had a bigger room I swear I would buy them, even just for 2 channel.

Wishful thinking I guess

Anyway here is the link for the item downunder http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Klipsch-La-Belle-Horn-Speaker_W0QQitemZ200290953660QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Hi_Fi_Speakers?hash=item200290953660&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

Those are nice DownUnder and the auction ends soon......better go get them

Auction ended - no bids

Pete - enjoy the speakers - they are very fine. [Y].

[joshnich]

Thanks Josh.

Where does one get the crossover upgrade/update? How much does this cost?

Pete

Either Bob Crites or Dean Westcott. Do your research on this as they take different approaches. You may want to just update your current AB with new caps or you may want to try another version with higher priced (higher quality ) caps. Either approach would provide noticable improvement. But I would suggest enjoying the speakers the way they are for a while before going down this path. Again the journey is fun so take time to enjoy it along the way!

Josh

[pjpmd]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I feel I've received some great advice. I'm not in a big hurry, as I have an old Carver m1.5 that I can run them on in the mean time. The guy I bought the speakers from recommended a McIntosh 2105. These aren't too expensive. What is the general consensus of this amplifier? Good match for Belles?

Thank you,

Pete

ps - here is the link to the speakers I bought on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280293347395

[Cut-Throat]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. I feel I've received some great advice. I'm not in a big hurry, as I have an old Carver m1.5 that I can run them on in the mean time. The guy I bought the speakers from recommended a McIntosh 2105. These aren't too expensive. What is the general consensus of this amplifier? Good match for Belles?

You are probably not going to get a "General Consensus" about the Amp you mention. It is solid state and I prefer tubes by a wide margin. And SET tube amps in particular.

As long as you have a Carver Amp and are not in a hurry. Just hook it up and familarize yourself with the sound. Then find some forum members in your area that will let you listen to their rigs. Or if they are really close, they could be talked into hooking up their amps to your speakers. You need to spend some time to listen to the various amp topologies, to decide what you like. Solid State, Push-Pull Tubes or SET amps or OTL. The more you listen to the various amps, the more your tastes will change.That will be the cheapest way. The expensive route will be to purchase each topology every 6 months and put the gear up for sale on Audiogon and buy the next amp topology.[] -

It also depends on what type of music you listen to. I like Jazz, and for the 'muscian in the room' experince, nothing comes close to a 45 SET amp.

[edwinr]

Congratulations on your new Belles. They are one of the finest speakers money can buy. I've owned a few of the 'other' finest speakers on the market and I've gone back to a new pair of Belles.

Regarding amplifiers - try a decent solid state amplifier first. I like the Harmon kardon range. Even their new receivers sound pretty damn good, so you could buy new if you wanted. But initially I would go for a decent used solid state amplifier that you will gladly keep as a spare for later when you buy a decent tube amplifier. I love tubes, but don't get sucked into buying one of those cheap Chinese folded sheet metal things. You might get lucky and get a good one, but chances are you will get ripped off. I know 0 been there and done that. Save a couple of bucks and buy a classic tube ampliifier from days gone buy and get it refurbished. If you have enough money to buy a decent new tube amplifier then go for it. But buy quality.

Enjoy your Belles...

[winchester21]

I saw the belles and thought about them. I am too far away so it would not have worked. Congrats- beautiful speakers. I am looking for a set of Cornwalls or Khorns with Belles as a possible solution depending on what I can find. I sought advice in another thread concerning Heritage speakers in this section and came away with the observation that my Carver A753-250 WPC was way too much for any heritage speaker.Further research and listening pretty much confirmed this. There was a post stating that you need to be in the 30% or higher volume setting for proper operation of any heritage speaker. I would agree with this after playing with a Mac 275. I listened to a set of Cornwalls with a mac 275 tube amp with a matching mac tube preamp- not sure which one. The sound was absolutely awesome and has convinced me to begin my search for a used example or an older and less pricey similar model. I also listened to the mac integrated amp side by side against the tube amp/preamp and the tube model blew away the integrated model. I could be satisfied with the integrated mac but most that I have seen for sale used still have way too much power for heritage speakers. I presenty own Carver, B&K, and HK power amps to run my reference HT system. I bought these off E-bay for dirt cheap-1200.00 for 3 amps- 7 channels. These are all GREAT pieces and they improved my present system by 200%. However they are not the correct tools to run heritage speakers. The sad truth is that you can buy a great pair of heritage speakers for a very reasonable price but you better get your big checkbook out to match suitable electronics if you expect to get the full potential from them. Personally, I hope to get something real nice for around 4K. The 275 with a preamp lists for 8 new which is not going to work for me.

As for the mac sucks comment everybody is entitled to their opinion. Personally, I would listen to some Mac stuff in person or blow the comment off completely. I listened to several Mac 275 setups recently with Klipsch as well as B&W and some high end Definitive speakers. I was totaly blown away by the clean rich sound of the Mac products. I do not presently own any so it's not like I am bragging on what I own. The mac amps put my stuff to shame.To me this is a no brainer- just a question of how much other stuff I will have to sell to buy what I want.Best of luck with your search. We may be bidding against each other on E-bay.

[garymd]

No problem Dr. Pete. If you're ever in the Baltimore area, my offer stands.

One piece of advice.....DO NOT SKIMP ON CROSSOVER UPGRADES. I've tried it both ways and there's a huge difference between stock crossovers and better than stock crossovers. JMHO of course.[]