NOS Valves VRD - Newest Fan

[Audible Nectar]

Well I am elated that so many people have a positive response to Craig's VRD, and the JM Peach. Why I am so excited about it, is that I just purchased a pair of the VRD and a JM Peach. I can't wait to put then in line with my Cornscalas.

I guess the only exception I must take is about the MC275.......

Cigarbum

I do have to wonder if there was something amiss with his 275. While I think the VRDs to be an excellent solution, the 275 shouldn't have been so far off to be "night and day". I still see the VRDs being best for the purpose overall, and now you'll have the opportunity to form your own well informed opinion too[]

[gonzp]

I don't want to sound snooty but, there is no comparasin in my opinion. The VRD's stomp all over the Manely. You would have to spend a pretty penny to get better sound and gear than the VRD's the BBX and Klipsch Heritage. I have had my current combo since 2005 and I see no reason to change anything. Congrats on the VRD's!

[InnerTuber]

I luv it

Don't forget "no warnings at all about the dangers of dusting them while operating (my swiffer caught on fire) " - you can use wet wipes but may get steam burns.

[jwc]

Well I am elated that so many people have a positive response to Craig's VRD, and the JM Peach. Why I am so excited about it, is that I just purchased a pair of the VRD and a JM Peach. I can't wait to put then in line with my Cornscalas.

I guess the only exception I must take is about the MC275.......

Cigarbum

I do have to wonder if there was something amiss with his 275. While I think the VRDs to be an excellent solution, the 275 shouldn't have been so far off to be "night and day". I still see the VRDs being best for the purpose overall, and now you'll have the opportunity to form your own well informed opinion too

I bet there wasn't anything wrong with the MC275. I had the new version too (V). There wasn't anything astonishing about it. I think a lot of it is the tubes that come with it. I got rid of the amp after having it 6 months. Later tried Macs new preamps...the C220 and the C2300. Didn't notice too much difference between the two besides features. They were good units but didn't blow me away. However, rolled the tubes in the C220...Now that was a huge difference. That just tells me I should have changed the tubes in the MC275.

I heard VRD's with a peach on Mark1101's late Khorns with ESN. Very musical system.

jc

[NOSValves]

I do have to wonder if there was something amiss with his 275. While I think the VRDs to be an excellent solution, the 275 shouldn't have been so far off to be "night and day". I still see the VRDs being best for the purpose overall, and now you'll have the opportunity to form your own well informed opinion too

Dave,

Remember that little tweak I do at the end of a McIntosh rebuild that brings the voicing back too original? I bet the McIntosh engineers just transfered the original MC275 design over to the circuit board, popped in some nice modern I/O jacks and other niceties but never tuned the circuit for modern coupling caps they now use and possibly any difference in the output iron wound today.... I bet for less then $10 in parts and a couple hours on the bench I could make the version V sings as a McIntosh should.... You also have to factor in the speakers the folks at McIntosh are using those amps with....not exactly revealing.

One thing for sure if those amps sound as bad as some of these folks are describing no amount of tube rolling is going to fix it. Tube rolling can make a difference but its never going to change the meat and bones character of an amplifier.

Craig

[NOSValves]

Everyone,

Thanks for the great comments. I've been busy packing up to finally move both my home and shop to northern Michigan so I hadn't even seen this thread. I happened to call Dean today and he called me back tonight he was pretty disappointed when I told him I had not read this thread. Darn smart XXX. I could get him back but I'll leave the payback for a more opportune moment []

Manning I'm really glad your enjoying your system. I also wished you had hung onto this Cornwall III's I would of liked to hear how the combination would of sounded.

Craig

[SilverSport]

...another BIG fan of the VRDs...and of Craig's service...both excellent and a compliment to Klipsch...especially big Heritage...and yes Craig...Revenge IS a dish best served cold...just remember Dean can be tricky too...Craig, I missed that you are moving...hope all goes well and good luck with the new place!...

Bill

[garymd]

Like so many others here:

VRDs (tube rolling resulted in very little improvement)

BBX w/Cream (LOTS of expensive tube rolling resulted in major improvements, particularly to phono)

Khorns w/Dean G's ALK Jrs (huge improvement)

With the help of these 3 guys (plus Larry C & Allan S's TT recommendations), I have 3 incredible systems. If you love the Klipsch sound as we forum folks obviously do, you can't beat the systems we've been able to piece together using the products built by these guys. Inexpensive, custom built for our speakers by really nice folks (except Craig and Dean - wink, wink), and customer service that CANNOT be beat ANYWHERE!!

Congrats on your VRDs!! May they bring you many years of sonic bliss. They should as they are virtually indestructible. I don't think Craig has performed one repair in all these years with all the sets he has built due to design flaws or quality control. Now THAT's saying something!!

[nu2toobs]

Changing my kt88's to Gold Lion's made an incredible change in my stereo VRD.

Like so many others here:

VRDs (tube rolling resulted in very little improvement)

BBX w/Cream (LOTS of expensive tube rolling resulted in major improvements, particularly to phono)

Khorns w/Dean G's ALK Jrs (huge improvement)

With the help of these 3 guys (plus Larry C & Allan S's TT recommendations), I have 3 incredible systems. If you love the Klipsch sound as we forum folks obviously do, you can't beat the systems we've been able to piece together using the products built by these guys. Inexpensive, custom built for our speakers by really nice folks (except Craig and Dean - wink, wink), and customer service that CANNOT be beat ANYWHERE!!

Congrats on your VRDs!! May they bring you many years of sonic bliss. They should as they are virtually indestructible. I don't think Craig has performed one repair in all these years with all the sets he has built due to design flaws or quality control. Now THAT's saying something!!

[garymd]

Changing my kt88's to Gold Lion's made an incredible change in my stereo VRD.

Like so many others here:

VRDs (tube rolling resulted in very little improvement)

BBX w/Cream (LOTS of expensive tube rolling resulted in major improvements, particularly to phono)

Khorns w/Dean G's ALK Jrs (huge improvement)

With the help of these 3 guys (plus Larry C & Allan S's TT recommendations), I have 3 incredible systems. If you love the Klipsch sound as we forum folks obviously do, you can't beat the systems we've been able to piece together using the products built by these guys. Inexpensive, custom built for our speakers by really nice folks (except Craig and Dean - wink, wink), and customer service that CANNOT be beat ANYWHERE!!

Congrats on your VRDs!! May they bring you many years of sonic bliss. They should as they are virtually indestructible. I don't think Craig has performed one repair in all these years with all the sets he has built due to design flaws or quality control. Now THAT's saying something!!

I guess I didn't spend enough money.

[nu2toobs]

I should have been more clearer. I bought the reissue Gold Lions.

[mowntnbkr]

Hey JC, what tubes did you put in your C220?

[mark1101]

Telefunken smooth plates.

[jwc]

Telefunken smooth plates.

Yes...NOS labeled. Got them from Jesse.

jc

[Audible Nectar]

I do have to wonder if there was something amiss with his 275. While I think the VRDs to be an excellent solution, the 275 shouldn't have been so far off to be "night and day". I still see the VRDs being best for the purpose overall, and now you'll have the opportunity to form your own well informed opinion too

Dave,

Remember that little tweak I do at the end of a McIntosh rebuild that brings the voicing back too original? I bet the McIntosh engineers just transfered the original MC275 design over to the circuit board, popped in some nice modern I/O jacks and other niceties but never tuned the circuit for modern coupling caps they now use and possibly any difference in the output iron wound today.... I bet for less then $10 in parts and a couple hours on the bench I could make the version V sings as a McIntosh should.... You also have to factor in the speakers the folks at McIntosh are using those amps with....not exactly revealing.

One thing for sure if those amps sound as bad as some of these folks are describing no amount of tube rolling is going to fix it. Tube rolling can make a difference but its never going to change the meat and bones character of an amplifier.

Craig

I think it is the "modern" voicing more than anything else. I don't know how much in common the "V" has in circuits vs the original versions......but if they are even similar to the vintage amps, the tubes will absolutely make a difference, and yeah, I'll bet there's a tweak or two you could find, too[] It seems those multistage Mac amps really crave the best of tubes to bring out thier best performance. There is MUCH more to be gained in small tube upgrades on my MC-30s and similar amps than there would be on VRDs - the VRDs are much closer to "ideal best" with stock tubes than a Mac amp would be with similar grade tubes.

So I could absolutely see cause to want to tube roll on a new 275 before giving up on one just knowing what I know of Mac amps (the outputs make me nervous, though, as resistors can fail if the power tubes fail, so those output tubes have gotta be right). That's not necessary to evaluate VRDs...owners do that later as a "finishing touch". Tube rolling my Macs were a PROJECT (and changed up somewhat with the cap swaps, especially the interaction of the various cap flavors with the 12AU7), but the VRDs were eeeeeeeasy to figure out - they really like Amperex Holland smalls up front, and seem happy with a number of output tubes, the Shug family being a great match at a relative value.

EXCEPT - The MONOBLOCKS DO NOT seem happy with the Gold Lion reissues. I didn't think them as good sonically in VRDs as the Shuguang tubes I've used (which is against the grain, as most who use them in other amps seem to really like them), but more of interest is that new Gold Lions have been known to fail in VRD monoblocks for some reason. I went through two quads personally, and know another one or two who have had issues with this tube in the monos. Can't speak for the VRD-ST (might work, lower operating voltages), but unless that tube has changed in the last year, VRD monoblock owners would be advised to try something else if they are investigating, because they do not "get along".

[garymd]

Just a side note......I never tried Mullards in my VRDs. I have really nice Bugle Boys in all four 12AX7 and 12AU7 slots and to be honest, I couldn't really hear much difference from the stock JJs(?). Maybe I just don't have the sensitive ears you guys have.

The only KT88s I've swapped in are two quads of Penta Labs (one quad had troubles so they sent me a second quad) and I seem to get a bit more bass but nothing earth shattering. Everything seems to sound great in the VRDs.

[Audible Nectar]

I've heard a couple different Mullards in VRDs but mostly found them too warm (although not offensively so, just would prefer more neutrality here). Mullards are a mixed bag because there's so many different Mullards (and a Mullard is not a Mullard like the Amperex 12A-7 series are more similar to each other through the "vintage era").

In VRDs, the 12AU7 is "where it's at" on the smalls, although I do tend to suggest rolling 'em in tandem (all Amperex/All Mullard/All Tele/All JJ) just to keep the front end in similar tubes. The JJ is actually a pretty good stock tube choice here, but there are small hints of inner wooliness present with those, vs. the superbly balanced and transparent Amperexes (and if one goes back from Amperexes to JJ it's more discernable what was lost - the general balance is similar but the Amperexes are very natural and transparent). The "King" is the 1959-1962 large O getter version 12AU7 (then I use later '60s Amperex 12AX7 as the 12AX7 vintage doesn't seem to matter as much). But rolling the 12AU7 shows the expected various traits of the vintages, the 1959-1962 versions having the best total combination of top side finish and bass slam (the 1950s longplates have a bit better top but not so much bass authority). After an hour of warm up they just disappear and go very transparent....the Amperexes seem such a natural fit here....and too with the Cardas caps (teflon hybrid) which also are quite clear with no added flavoring, just more of that "getting out of the way" quality.

I have a habit of ending up with 12AU7 phase splitter amplifers, and all share the commonality of that 12AU7 being an influential "voice tuning" tube for those amps (VRDs/MC-30s). So a key component of my tube stash is an array of NOS balanced triode 12AU7 in a host of brands and vintages. Most of these 12AU7 phase splitters want good balanced sections so my tube tech weeds out the mismatched stuff. NOS Euro military stocks have been my friend here!

These cap and tube upgrades for VRDs aren't "blow the doors off" different, just an added finishing touch that takes a very good piece of gear and makes it better. I have a habit of picking apart the finer details of things as I listen more extensively.....the true sign for me is my continued satisfaction as I continue to use the gear or tweak. Cheaper caps/tubes have a habit of "going away" around here, as the totality of the incremental upgrades add up. Caps+smalls+rectifier add up to a rather substantial performance upgrade....the kind of upgrades that audiophiles spend multiples of $$ in gear upgrades to achieve. If real NOS Tung-Sol 6550s weren't so expensive I'd have those too (but the $400-500 diff in price per quad is harder to justify vs. a Penta KT88 or VA KT100).

As the VRDs are currently (and as a fellow named Burgess said about Phish years ago), "Ice cream for the ears".

[NOSValves]

EXCEPT - The MONOBLOCKS DO NOT seem happy with the Gold Lion reissues. I didn't think them as good sonically in VRDs as the Shuguang tubes I've used (which is against the grain, as most who use them in other amps seem to really like them), but more of interest is that new Gold Lions have been known to fail in VRD monoblocks for some reason. I went through two quads personally, and know another one or two who have had issues with this tube in the monos. Can't speak for the VRD-ST (might work, lower operating voltages), but unless that tube has changed in the last year, VRD monoblock owners would be advised to try something else if they are investigating, because they do not "get along".

Let clarify something.... The early Genelax reissues had problems in ALL amplifiers..... VRD's had nothing to do with the problem.. In fact with tube problems in general the issues are directly related to the TUBES and never the VRD's (or any other amp in good working order).... All modern and vintage tubes have some % of reliability issues especially high powered ouputs. Tubes fail simple as that! especially output tubes used with high voltage and relatively high current situation. I've yet to find 100% reliability out of any make, model or brand of KT-88's....

LUCK OF THE DRAW ALL THE WAY....

From what I've been reading and hearing through the grape vine the reliability issues with the current crop of Genelax reissue KT-88's is much improved in all amplifiers.

Craig

[Audible Nectar]

Understood, Craig. In no way did I intend to convey that it is the fault of the VRDs - too many other current KT88 work well in them (including other tubes from the same factory) to believe the VRDs to be at fault. I know well that VRD owners weren't the only ones having issues, either, at least during that first year of release of the NS/Genelex. I attributed it either to early production problems or just a particular set of operating conditions that the new Genelex just wasn't happy with. My "foray" with the new Genelex was in late '07/early '08 (about 10-12 months after initial release), so it is entirely possible things have changed since then. It is good to hear things have settled down with this tube, as it IS a good effort, and choices in the realm of KT88 current production are absolutely a good thing!

Since I settled in on my current Shuguang stock, I haven't felt any reason to change back, as I am happy with those.

[mowntnbkr]

I have been running the Genalex reissues for 8 months now and they have been fantastic. Sonically I haven't really noticed a tremendous difference, but they seem to be more steady, as I have only had to bias them a couple of times, whereas the last bunch on Valve Arts were all over the place. From my understanding though the VA's are more reliable once again. I have to be honest with the lights out I love the blue glow of the Valve Arts and the fact that it saves me a few bucks compared to the Genalex reissues.