Another opinion about cables...

[Fastlayne]

Jim,

My electronics are stacked out in the open so it was quite easy to swap cables. Thanks, it was interesting to hear for myself the difference. I will drop the package at the Indpls. downtown Post office tomorrow afternoon and it will be headed back your way.

Thanks again!

Pat

I'd be interested to know the cables you compared and your general opinion, along with the associated equipment.

[DrWho]

I've never found any consistent correlation between measurements and listening enjoyment.

How can you make such a claim if you don't have any real world experience with measurements?

All I'm trying to say is that if you can hear a difference, then I absolutely guarantee I can measure it.

[Hifi jim]

How can you make such a claim if you don't have any real world experience with measurements?

All I'm trying to say is that if you can hear a difference, then I absolutely guarantee I can measure it.

I'm making that claim based on the measurements of products I've used by others, factory specs, test measurements, etc. For a long time I felt certain specifications would ensure a certain sound. Comparing components of similar spec, or test measurements have never guaranteed any similarity in sound from my point of view. Now perhaps you know of measurements that are not being done in popular publications, or that manufacturers don't post which would provide more depth to their sound, but I do not. Many companies such as Naim and Rega eschew specs in favor of listening, this is a philosophy that I prescribe to. I'm not saying that numbers are useless in design, of course not but they are for me and my use. Paul McGowan of PS Audio was interviewed when his HCA-2 Class D amp debuted. He was asked about the power supply which seemed rather large and excessive for such an amplifier of 95% efficiency. According to their measurements, there should have been no difference between the original small power supply initially used, and the larger power supply which they tried on a whim. Unsupported by numbers, and strictly using their ears, Paul and the PS Audio engineers could not ignore the improved sound from the larger power supply. I guess that would be an example of an audible difference that can't be measured.

[DrWho]

Unsupported by numbers, and strictly using their ears, Paul and the PS Audio engineers could not ignore the improved sound from the larger power supply. I guess that would be an example of an audible difference that can't be measured.

Sounds more like an example of measuring the wrong thing. (and I don't say that lightly because sometimes it can be very difficult to quantify differences)

[Hifi jim]

Sounds more like an example of measuring the wrong thing. (and I don't say that lightly because sometimes it can be very difficult to quantify differences)

Possible. But I'll side with Paul McGowan and his thirty five years in the business, he's a respected engineer and innovator. What measurable differences would you say there are between NOS tubes, and their supposedly identical twins currently made in China? Or how could one measure the impact of vibration isolation? I believe there are still many mysteries left unsolved in audio. Perhaps someday there will be measurements that can accurately test and predict a components sound, but until such time I guess manufacturers are stuck building expensive listening rooms within their factories, right beside their test labs.

[jacksonbart]

Yeah but this orange has a worm in it and this apple is full of orange seeds.

[TheEAR]

Interesting

Cables "add" the least to the final result in the sound system. Buy a quality ,well shielded 1M interconect and compare it with the Ubber brand that sells 100X the price. Guess what,you will hear 99.9% Placebo increase!

Yes you can measure changes,do these changes impact the end result(what we hear and can hear above all)to the extens to justify the price? NO

I have speaker cables ranging from the $1.50/ft 10GA copper wire to Monster Sigma/Cardas Golden Cross and other quite costly speaker wires. Do I hear the claimed "gains in resolution"...LOL NOPE. The Placebo ...YES.

I use mostly solid state power amps capable of driving difficult loads,the cable change effects are minimal at best. To say quality cables do not "add" anything is false, but the gains are too often minute. And if we hear (not the Placebo here) the "increased" detail it will be more to the fact now we pay more attention...to what we listen. The Placebo is still king.

[Don Richard]

.

Without the devices developed through scientific research, none of us would be listening to any electronically reproduced music.

Are cables not developed through scientific research?

It appears that many are designed with science that is not applicable to audio frequencies. I cannot hear radio frequencies without the use of a radio. No one can.

Don, you were wrong about human senses, although you made yourself out to be an expert in that field too . Isn't it possible you're wrong here?

Houston, we have a problem. Below is a link to an article that supports what I said about sight being the most reliable sense. It also supports what you said about cables. Wazzup?

http://www.anstendig.org/AudioCable.html

Note: These folks used two (2) different Monster Cable products for their comparitive tests.

[Don Richard]

I don't have any idea what portion of our listening preferences are associated with placebo. It might be some, a lot, or none, as far as I know. But to whatever extent it is responsible, it isn't a non-experience just because it is placebo.

It's not the placebo effect, or the cables. All you need to do is to rub some of this PSB "Cream Electret" on your cables and all will be well:

http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/product/Cable_Controversy/Cable_Controversy.htm

[Mallette]

>,,,e.g. the real state of anything is unknown until it is uniquely observed, at which time the observation process itself determines the value based on a range of probabilities.

OK, this is straying from the thread, but I cannot help but point out that the implications of this totally upended my world when I first understood them.

Think you just discovered a planet in a star system light years away that's been there billions of years?

Nope, it came into being precisely at the moment you observed it. And what if it has planets with intelligent life???

I know that eminent minds have struggled with this, including Stephen Hawking.

In spite of the above, this is relevant to the thread in that science has its limits. I believe absolutely in the scientific method. I also believe absolutely in the power of the human mind. If a person I have no reason to distrust says they experienced or observed something, it is absurd to say "No you didn't." A number of ideas have gone from lunatic ravings to accepted science in the past 100 years.

Our science remains young and pretty thin, unable to even define simple concepts like gravity and disease. Not a particularly sold basis on which to confirm or deny the experiences of others.

Dave

[DrWho]

Sounds more like an
example of measuring the wrong thing. (and I don't say that lightly
because sometimes it can be very difficult to quantify
differences)

Possible. But I'll side with Paul McGowan and his
thirty five years in the business, he's a respected engineer and
innovator.

No offense to McGowan, but if he's been doing
this for 35 years and hasn't been able to figure out how to design a
power supply, then I probably wouldn't put too much credit in his
experience. I suppose his response certainly caters to those that want
to believe that magic is involved, but I'm personally not a huge fan of
justifying mediocracy. To claim that you don't understand why something
behaves the way it does is to say that you don't understand your own
design. The old school engineers that I respect would agree with me
too, so it's not just the naivity of a young grasshopper.

Btw,
it's easy to criticize, and I believe a good engineer should be able to
offer alternative solutions. In fact, I would hope that after his
experience that he has gone back to figure out why it sounds better so
that it's not just a random occurrence in future designs. All I can say
is that in my few years of experience with Class D designs that I'm not
at all surprised that a better power supply sounds better....and in my
few years of experience I've got plenty of measurements that correlate
with the audible result too.

[Fastlayne]

Houston, we have a problem. Below is a link to an article that supports what I said about sight being the most reliable sense. It also supports what you said about cables. Wazzup?

http://www.anstendig.org/AudioCable.html

Note: These folks used two (2) different Monster Cable products for their comparitive tests.

Good article and made me think how visual comparisons can be made simultaneously but audio comparisons cannot. You view video signals on two different monitors, connected side by side, and ask a group of people which picture has the most realistic reds. You look at both and one looks more orange and one very red. Probably most everyone would pick the same as you and be able to describe the differences the same way. Easy. Harder to do with audio because you can't listen to two sets of speakers at the same time. As close as A-B switching is, you often are comparing speakers of different efficiency so the volume is different.

The other article was also informative. It was a good explanation and understandable right up to the last part, applying the cream to the cables, when I was thinking "primrose path" and tightened the grip on my wallet. Seriously though, good food for thought.

[Fastlayne]

Great post and explains a lot. I've heard changes in my sytems from cables and cords, or thought I did at least. Trying to put into words the changes is another thing. Seems like some people have the ability to describe what they hear and sometimes their explanations are very close to what I heard from the same product.

[jacksonbart]

"PLACEBO EFFECT"

WTF, I can sell you some sugar pills to make you live forever. How about $12.00 a pill, you do however need to exercise, eat right and take 5 of these a day, Send me a check for $21,900.00 or for a special limited time only, I can sell you a years worth for $20,000. I also have the super pills which require no exercise or diet on your part for $81.00 a pill, take 5 times a day with a glass of water, for $147825 a year. Now lets say you don't want to take 5 pills a day or drink 5 glasses a water a day, I have the "Gold" pill for you. It’s a bargain at $500 a pill a day. No water needed. So that comes to 182,500 a year and you live forever.

So why would the FDA shut me down for that? Science? No measurable proof? Come one, its like saying that some how gold faucets deliver water better than nickel-plated. Hey if you’re into nice looking cables then go for it, but don't be deluded that they make a difference in sound.

[kev313]

I've never found any consistent correlation between measurements and listening enjoyment.

 

How can you make such a claim if you don't have any real world experience with measurements?

All I'm trying to say is that if you can hear a difference, then I absolutely guarantee I can measure it.

My stereo sounds different...subjectively better...when I cup my ears or just push them out. Let's measure these:

[russ69]

Sally Field is really starting to show her age......................

Thanx, Russ

[Speedball]

Hey if you’re into nice looking cables then go for it, but don't be deluded that they make a difference in sound.

JB, Have you ever had the opportunity to try different cables?

For about $5.00 shipping it can happen.

[stan krajewski]

Can someone, (anyone !!!) please provide a link to a site or post a document which proves that in a double blindfolded test it has been shown that a group of human beings have been able to tell the difference between different cables or speaker wire.

Just one.

Thank you.

[Fish]

Can someone, (anyone !!!) please provide a link to a site or post a document which proves that in a double blindfolded test it has been shown that a group of human beings have been able to tell the difference between different cables or speaker wire.

Just one.

Thank you.

Not likely,I thought by now it was known that altered cables can only have a neg effect(changed from original),which some may like.

[colterphoto1]

Sally Field is really starting to show her age......................

Thanx, Russ

GREAT, I just spat out milk and cheerios.... do you realize what kind of mess that makes?

Michael