Rudy81 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Mike, No argument about the changes made by the ALK universal. This is by far the biggest change I have made in my system. I originally purchased them for my old Belles, which had the AB network. That was a huge change. When I got these Khorns, I never hesitated about replacing the network. I think they came wiht the AK3 or something like that. I have 3 ALK's since I needed another for my center channel La Scala. I mulled that purchase over quite a bit also. Knowing what I know now, I made the right decision. I would not give up my ALK's on my speakers. I have been curious abou the ES networks, but that expense is just over the top for me personally. Life is full of compromises and we all have different pain thresholds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Greg: My plan is to first go back to the my K400 and K55 with the ALK and CT-125. Just reset the base line of what I had before your V-tracs. Unfortunately, I only have the K55's I'm using with the K400, so there will not really be a way to compare the Tracorns and the K400's quickly. In the last week I feel I have gotten a good sense of the V-trac sound. Then, I plan to set up the Trachorns with the K55's and have my first listen. Then, I will be able to listen to the Trachorns and the V-tracs in relatively quick sequence. I know what I will be looking for after many hours with your V-tracs. Needless to say, I'm no expert or 'audiophile'. Heck, I usually get frustrated just trying to find the vocabulary to express what I hear. So, take anything I say with a grain of salt. For me, this is a lot of fun and very different than what I normally do, so it is rather enjoyable. I do know that I like the 'fuller' , more natural sound your horns produce. The experience has most definately shown me the shortcomings of the stock K400. One thing is to read about it, another is to hear the difference. Sounds like a good plan. I have said this before, but it bears repeating. I think the difference in sound between the ALK Trachorn and the V-Trac horn is minimal. Both are wooden tractrix horns of about the same dimensions. The difference is in the driver size and quality. You are going to be comparing the improvements made by upgrading from the stock setup to the ALK Trachorns versus the improvements made by upgrading from the stock setup to the V-Trac. I think that is a worthy experiment. Be prepared, however, to find the differences in the horns (k400 to the Trachorn or V-trac) smaller than the differences in the drivers (K55 to BMS) by a large degree. That was my experience, and the experience of others I think. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Greg: Understood. The BMS certainly has a broader frequency response as best I can tell. I might also repeat that I'm no expert, so this will be purely a subjective impression on my part. I have been trying to learn about drivers these last few days and frankly, it seem that the K55M is really not that bad when compared to what is available on the market. That is, simply by looking at frequency response etc. The BMS 2" driver is a whole different animal and I understand that. BTW, did you ever have an opportunity to make a similar comparison with your gear? If you did, please share your experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Hi guys, I guess I might as well get in here since I'm involved just by the nature of this! I did a comparison of IM distortion with the V-Trac and the Trachorns both using quality drivers (BMS and the JBL 2426H) and posted a thread here on it a few months ago. I never did a listening test though becasue I only had one V-Trac and driver, no stereo setup. I normally leave listening test to others anyhow. My assumption was that the two horns were similar concentrating on the 1 inch versus 2 inch question. Here we are going to compare a big 2 Inch driver to a poor little K55! I'm not sure it is a meaningfull comparison. My experinece with drivers was to replace the K55Vs with the JBL2426H drivers. My conclusion was that the difference was noticable but not the jaw-droper I noticed when moving away from the K500 (Belle) horn to the Altec VOTs I was using at the time. What we need is somebody with a set of Trachorns (1 inch) to try a few quality 1 inch drivers and compare them to the K55. You need to keep in mind that reusing the K55 is simply a cost saving compromise. Everybody already has one! Rudy, your next step is to buy a set of JBL2426j drivers and compare them on the Trachorns to the K55s. I love spending other peoples money! [6] Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 http://www.usspeaker.com/jbl%202426H-1.htm $300 each for 1" JBL 2426 drivers, with a cut off frequency of 800Hz 12db. Or $458 each for the 2" BMS driver. I'm sitting here shaking my head. I'd go get a paper route for a couple of weeks, or deliver pizza's for a couple of weeks, or whatever. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Al, I have to agree with Greg on this one. The price difference between the BMS and the JBL is really not that much, even when you consider that every time I look at a change it is not just two of each, but three. My curiousity at this point is merely to see just how large the difference is between these two setups. Purely subjective of course. I would fully expect the BMS and V-trac to perform at least a little better than a re-used K55 and the Trachorn. Based on my limited research and knowledge, it seems that very few 1" drivers can even be used in our setups unless you go with different crossovers etc. other than the K55. I am curious as to the magnitude of difference in this apples and organges comparisson. I am fully convinced that the wood tractrix horn is superior to the stock K400. The question is how far to go in making changes to achieve a modicum of improvement without spending several thousand dollars to get it. Granted, I have already spent a good amount on the improvements I have already made. It may just come down to a situation where you can't really compare the two. Each one has its own characteristics, pluses and minuses. I consider this comparrison more of a Corvette vs. a Ferrari rather than a Corvette and a Yugo. If you can afford and really want the Ferrari, go for it. But, if you would be pretty darn happy with a 'vette, then there's nothing wrong with that either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Rudy, Well,. I guess it all comes down one of the facts of life: Nothing good comes cheap! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Rudy, Well,. I guess it all comes down one of the facts of life: Nothing good comes cheap! Al K. Undeniably! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Rudy, Well,. I guess it all comes down one of the facts of life: Nothing good comes cheap! Al K. Undeniably! When I was younger, I was good for nothing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkalsi Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 I think the difference in the price of drivers is only a component of the difference between the two upgrades (especially if you already have a pair of ALK Trachorns). If I could simply update the mid-driver to the BMS, my cost for the upgrade will only be $1,000. But - the thing is that I will need a new horn to attach the BMS to - which will run an additional $800. Given my current set-up, if i was to upgrade to the 2426, my total cost of this upgrade would be $600. If I wanted to upgade to the BMS driver, my total cost of the upgrade would be $1,800. (i.e., a difference of $1,200). With that said - I would definitely jump on the upgrade if there is a notable difference in a heart beat. I would deliever pizzas, newspaper, or whatever it takes. I total understand that in this hobby, to gain a 1% improvement in sound can cost substantial money <--- and for me its worth it so long as I can afford it. But - I will need the help of others to help me decide whether the improvement is worth it. As I mentioned earlier, I plan on having quite a few people over - audiophile and non-audiophiles to help me decide. I sometime feel that many "audiophiles can hear the in-audible details" <--this includes me at times. Many many times in the past, I have upgraded components and tried hard to convince myself the money well spent just because I already spent my money on it. At the same time, this is the only way to find out what works and what doesn't. All that being said, if I can recommend two components out of all the components I have been owned (and there have been many) - I would say it has got to be the Plinius SA-100 MkIII (<-- yes I know its solid state) and Juicy Music Merlin (i kick myself everyday for selling it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 and Juicy Music Merlin (i kick myself everyday for selling it). I like my Merlin better than the BBX I had. I think Mark could make a killing on that pre alone (or the successor to his company).Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonsairich Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 Having listened to Greg's V-tracs and to everyone here for quite some time here's my 2 cents: I went from plastic to wood to Greg's V-trac in 6 months. I went from K-55 and 400 horn with Crites tweeter and crossovers to a wooden Tractrix horn with Atlas PD-5VH 1" driver, then to demo Greg's V-Trac. The difference for me was amazing and I immediately ordered the 2" horn (Fc260) from Greg, but like most can't afford the whole set-up right away. I got Communty M-200 drivers used here on the Forum and am looking at some Beyma and Radian drivers for the top end as the Community craps out a little early. I'm also working on tap settings and new caps as well. I figure in the long run I will probably have the same set-up as Greg's because the bottom line is the liquid smooooth open articulate sound from these makes it very difficult to go back to 1". If there is an upgrade alternative to any part of a system that rivals the sound of Greg's please let me know. I am using Quicksilver SET monos, VTL TL-5 pre, Don Allen CD w/ tube or a Denon 2910. "IF" you can audition to the 2" and stay with a 1" set-up I am very envious of you. Any significant difference at this stage of the game I have to have within reason. I sent Greg a pic and either he or I can post if anyone is interested in seeing the horn atop a Cornwall cab ( don't have corners for K-horns). I personally thinks it looks great. Rich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 $300 each for 1" JBL 2426 drivers, with a cut off frequency of 800Hz 12db. Or $458 each for the 2" BMS driver. Greg if that's the case you owe me $20 bucks!!! LOL!!! Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted July 26, 2009 Share Posted July 26, 2009 IF" you can audition to the 2" and stay with a 1" set-up I am very envious of you. Rich I would have to agree with this statement 100%, I had the chance to listen again to my original setup K55-K400-K77 and (THAT DOG DON'T HUNT). Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 I have been trying to learn about drivers these last few days and frankly, it seem that the K55M is really not that bad when compared to what is available on the market. That is, simply by looking at frequency response etc. The frequency response plots are of very limited use when comparing drivers. Even if two drivers have very similar frequency response in advertised graphs without comparing them under identical conditions (ie: the same horns) what you hear could be very different. Also most frequency response graphs are like a split second snap-shot and what really separates many driver's performances is in how they respond to an impulse sound(ie: music for example). If a driver cannot respond fast enough and/or continues to ring for an extended period of time after the impulse has ceased you will have a loss in clarity, inner detail and dynamics in these frequency regions. mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Here's a 1 inch driver from BMS that looks like a real bargain at $136 from US Speaker. The response plot looks very much like the JBL 2426 driver that I use. I doubt there would be any problem using it in a LaScala with a 500 Hz crossover. In a Khorn though you might need an extreme-slope network to be completely safe. BMS 4550 Al K. bms-4550.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 $300 each for 1" JBL 2426 drivers, with a cut off frequency of 800Hz 12db. Or $458 each for the 2" BMS driver. Greg if that's the case you owe me $20 bucks!!! LOL!!! Jay LOL!! Jay, you're such a pennypincher! What? Did I get the price wrong? I guess it's $468 per driver. LOL Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blvdre Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 Here's a 1 inch driver from BMS that looks like a real bargain at $136 from US Speaker. The response plot looks very much like the JBL 2426 driver that I use. I doubt there would be any problem using it in a LaScala with a 500 Hz crossover. In a Khorn though you might need an extreme-slope network to be completely safe. BMS 4550 Al K. There are some over on the Lansing sight that really like these drivers for two-way set-ups. Supposedly a very good value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 I have an idea. Everyone get on a flight, come down to Dallas and you can help me decide. It would definately be better to have more ears to evaluate these things. I'll buy the beer.:-) One of my problems is making sure the improvements I hear are 'real' and not some psychological impression based on expectation. It takes a some time of continued listening to clarify what is reality vs. expectation. Not to mention the fact that I'm no expert. I imagine performance plots don't alwas translate to perceived sound, but plots are a more scientific, objective way to at least get some sense of what something can do. I often wonder what PWK would think about all these changes to his work. What compromises in components did he make to make a speaker commercially viable etc? What technological limitations existed in his time that don't exist today that he would love to incorporate? I hope he doesn't mind that I keep trying to improve the sound in his Khorns. Well, off to the gym and then I'm sitting by the door waiting for the Fed Ex man. It's raining here again, so it could be another perfect afternoon to set up some wood horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbsl Posted July 27, 2009 Share Posted July 27, 2009 It's raining here again, so it could be another perfect afternoon to set up some wood horns. What is rain?[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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