Set all speakers to "Small" when using Cornwalls?

[Ave Bona Cornwall]

Hi, I am very new to writing in the forum, but have been reading it a while. Here's my question (and I know it may come down to a personal preference):

Most "experts" recommend setting all speakers to "small" in a home theater setup for all around better sound and less strain on the amp. But in my setup, I have Cornwalls (1980's?) in the front (with CF-2's in the back and KLF-C7 (I think) center), and my sub is probably the weak link, since I bought everything piece by piece in a short period of time, and skimped on the sub, since I had the cornwalls. It is a Cambridge Soundworks Basscube 12.

In my limited adjustments, I think the sound is better when I set the Corns to large at least when listening to music, but I am not a pro at adjusting my sub, either. I am just wondering what other people have done when using Cornwalls. Thanks in advance for all your help.

[CECAA850]

Does your Marantz have Audyssey?

[Ave Bona Cornwall]

No Audessy. I bought everything around year 2000 +/- before Audessy was standard on everything.

[jacksonbart]

Really a lot is going to depend on the room, but in most cases if the sub is equal to the mains, you are better off driving the main speakers as small. I think having mono LFE bass usually presents less room issues then stereo bass especially when you really can't move your main speakers like you can your sub. In your case I think your sub is way out classed by the cornwalls. I would run the cornwalls as large and move the sub into a seperate system like the one hooked to your PC and save for a future enhancement. Give it a shot, I would be surprised that the sub is contributing much and could even be hurting the bass performance of the cornwalls if its out of phase. Good luck.

[MoparBob]

Audessy on my Denon3808 sets my Cornwalls to small. Plus I run it LFE + main.

[Ave Bona Cornwall]

Thanks. I had been thinking about just leaving the fronts as Large for music and turning the sub off, then setting the fronts to Small for movies and turing the sub on, since music is where I tend to notice the difference. And, the sub should be able to help out with all the LFE in movies. I think the real solution would be to get a new sub, but spending more on HT right now wouldn't make my wife too happy.

Seperate thought - I saw a RF-3 system (2 RF-3, RC-3, 2 RS-3, KSW-15) for $600 on craigslist (Maine), with monster cable for all. I am thinking the Sub on that is probably worth about $250-$300 alone, but again, I don't need a whole new HT set!

[jacksonbart]

my recommendation is don't look for a quick fix and just get a sub a little better. Cornwalls are very nice speakers and can deliver great bass alone, but they are effecient and will need a sub capable to keep up with them. I would take some time save up some cash and look at an RSW-15 (used, although I think buying used subs can be dicey) or RT-10d or RT-12d. At most dealers you don't pay retail, so its something to consider. Also why you save you will get more used to your system, I only say this since you mentioned you have gotten the items over a short time span. You can also look at non klipsch subs. I have heard people wax poetic about the SVS subs. I am actually using an Epik right now. I wouldn't rush in to anything.

[Rudy81]

My Khorns, La Scala, and cornwalls are all set to small. Audyssey interprets their response as large, but in order to optimize sub use, they are set to small manually. The crossover from mains to sub will likely vary by your taste and your main's ability to go low.

[Trey Cannon]

When set to large, the cornwall can be boomy...Steve P uses his in small

I like mine in large, but the room had a lot to do with that.

Listen to it and use it how you like the sound. No harm any way you do it.

[JJkizak]

Why would you purchase K-horns and purposely cut off the low end? Makes no sense to me.

JJK

[dtel]

No Audessy. I bought everything around year 2000 +/- before Audessy was standard on everything.

Does it have DTS and DD 5.1, I sure hope it's not an old pro logic model, can't remember when it switched ?

[Rudy81]

Why would you purchase K-horns and purposely cut off the low end? Makes no sense to me.

JJK

The Khorn does not have a flat frequency response below about 30 Hz. By 20Hz, much of the bass has been lost. So, a sub is necessary if you want a relatively flat response to 20Hz or slightly below depending on your subwoofer's ability.

[Rudy81]

My Khorns start to roll off slightly at 40Hz and more dramatically as they pass below 30Hz. So, I use a subwoofer, like the RSW-15 or my SVS to pick up the lower frequencies and maintain a relatively flat response curve from just below 20Hz on up. What doesn't make sense to me is why you would allow the Khorns to produce frequencies below 30Hz when a good subwoofer would only enhance the sound and help to provide a good response from 20Hz to 10kHz. I used to think as you do, until I hooked up my sub with 2 channel jazz just for fun. I had no idea I was missing out on the lower frequencies which certainly added to the overall experience.

I don't know if too many speakers that have a relatively flat response from 20Hz to 20kHz. Now, the khorn is an amazing speaker in its own right. But it is not a perfect speaker.

[Ave Bona Cornwall]

No Audessy. I bought everything around year 2000 +/- before Audessy was standard on everything.

Does it have DTS and DD 5.1, I sure hope it's not an old pro logic model, can't remember when it switched ?

Yes, I have the SR7000, which has DTS and DD 5.1. I think I have determined that I will keep them set to large, and experiment with the placement of my sub...perhaps beside my couch if I can find a long enough sub cable (+/- 20'). Not that my couch is 20' away, but the run would need to be at least 15'.

My HT takes up most of my basement, so it is a fairly large room, and the "large" mains plus a sub shouldn't be too much bass. Plus, I don't listen too often at reference levels, and my amp isn't overworked to start with, so powering the highs and lows on the mains should be fine.

Thanks again for everyone's input.

[Mr. RF62]

Audessy on my Denon3808 sets my Cornwalls to small. Plus I run it LFE + main.

Some receivers like my Yamaha, when set to LFE + main (both) it automatically sets the fronts to "Large".

[Islander]

Some receivers like my Yamaha, when set to LFE + main (both) it automatically sets the fronts to "Large".

I've also got my Yamaha AV receiver set to LFE plus Main to the front speakers. I tried setting them to Small, then to Large, and prefer the Large setting, as it gives a bigger sound. Try both and see which sounds better to you.

Also, I never got that logic of "saving the speakers or amp from the burden of reproducing low bass". Most speakers and amps are designed to run full range and do it with no problems. When the mains start to roll off, the sub should cut in, so you have a fairly flat frequency response. As well, pretty well all speakers can benefit from the help of a sub, even for acoustic music. It takes a bit of time to dial in the sub's best location and settings, but a system whose sound is pretty well flat down to 25Hz or lower will sound great for music and movies both.

There should be no need to change settings between music and movies, unless you think the directors are leaving explosions and the like too low in the mix. Most explosions and other LFE content should sound fine with a properly setup music system, unless you want extra-loud (more than the director planned on) LFE when watching movies.

[Zen Traveler]

Audessy on my Denon3808 sets my Cornwalls to small. Plus I run it LFE + main.

Fwiw, Audyssey does not recommend the "LFE + main" setting:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17176579&highlight=lfe+main#post17176579

The benefits of distributed bass from multiple sources are well established in the literature. But, AVRs are not really set up to allow this through the Double Bass (or LFE+Main) modes. It could be something that a manufacturer could allow so that it is enabled prior to running MultEQ. That way MultEQ could time and level align the bass sources and then ping them together as one distributed sub to get the best results. Until that happens, however, I think that this workaround being discussed here is more likely to give people the wrong (i.e. boomy) response in the region where the speaker and sub are playing the same content."

[Islander]

Using a sub that's set to roll off its upper end in the same area where the main speakers roll off their bottom end should produce good sound with little overlap between mains and sub. As for time misalignment between sub(s) and mains, that can be corrected by ear or by the receiver's setup program, Audyssey or whatever you're using.

As well, it can be helpful to have an EQ for the sub alone in order to flatten out its in-room response. Some subs have a built-in EQ for this purpose.

[CECAA850]

[Also, I never got that logic of "saving the speakers or amp from the burden of reproducing low bass".

The logic here is that main speakers can not produce the frequencies that are on the LFE track. If LFE is not sent to the mains then it's not a problem. I've set my mains to Large and told the receiver that there was no sub. Theoretically everything should have been sent to the mains. It sounded like I lost an octave and a half if not more. In addition, sending large signals to your mains that are below the tuning point of your (in my case ported) cabinets and having a stout amp to push it, is asking for trouble.

[Trey Cannon]

I feel the same way, if its a large speaker set it to large...sometimes that can cause more issues due to the room.

The Khorn is NOT a flat speaker. Flat responce is the last of 4 things PWK looked at when building that product.

The P-39 has a dran flat responce but as you say it too is not perfect.

My Khorns start to roll off slightly at 40Hz and more dramatically as they pass below 30Hz. So, I use a subwoofer, like the RSW-15 or my SVS to pick up the lower frequencies and maintain a relatively flat response curve from just below 20Hz on up. What doesn't make sense to me is why you would allow the Khorns to produce frequencies below 30Hz when a good subwoofer would only enhance the sound and help to provide a good response from 20Hz to 10kHz. I used to think as you do, until I hooked up my sub with 2 channel jazz just for fun. I had no idea I was missing out on the lower frequencies which certainly added to the overall experience.

I don't know if too many speakers that have a relatively flat response from 20Hz to 20kHz. Now, the khorn is an amazing speaker in its own right. But it is not a perfect speaker.