McIntosh MC275 vs. NOS VRD mono's

[wpines]

I'm wondering if anyone's had both and can make a comparison. I've owned Craig's VRD45ST, but not the VRD monoblocks. I've owned 10 or 12 different McIntosh amps but not the MC275. I'm wondering if anyone's had both and can make a comparison.

[USNRET]

That question would be right up Cigarbum's alley. He has both.

[CIGARBUM]

I do have both and love them. Now I may be critized for this but I really can't tell a lot of difference. These old ears just don't work like they used to. The MC275 is driving modified Khorns and the VRD's are driving some big ol DBB. Keep in mind I have just put $700-800 in tube upgrades, they do make a difference.

If you need any specific info, let me know.

cb

[wpines]

Thanks. I loved the VRD45ST on my Klipschorns, great bass. McIntosh is unique in that you can generally buy used and sell at the same price. Quick resale too. VRD's can be custom built and they come with access to Craig. VRD's are built for tube rolling too.

[Audible Nectar]

I would say that both are good amps, and I considered both before purchasing VRDs. VRDs are the "custom" solution in Heritage amplification, being tube rectified and an oh-so-clear-sounding transparency that make them "a cut above" at thier price point. The finer details count, and VRDs reinforce thier position in my systems the longer I own them. I notice more and more reasons I like them with time and increasingly intimate knowledge of the sonics.

I'll never say "never" on a Mac amp such as the modern 275, it's still a good choice from a good company with a long standing reputation in the business. But it's an "off the shelf solution", much like buying a good pair of shoes from a quality shoe store. But VRDs are like having those shoes built especially for you, custom made to all ideal wishes. It's tough to ask ANY larger scale manufacturer to build such a solution, and we're fortunate to have access to such a solution.

I can yap for hours on this stuff (good thing or I would send Alan in Mass. a bill....hehehe).....feel free to email/PM if you wanna chat further.

[NOSValves]

All the vintage MC amps are really nice products and with proper rebuilding/tweaking can be real nice offerings... To me they lack slightly in the transparency department and that is directly related to having so many tube stages and associated caps in the signal path to give you that MC sound...This can only be limited by using real high end transparent caps. The VRD has a whopping two capacitors in the signal path... The preamp/driver section is direct coupled. I find it flattering that VRD's are in the same league sonically speaking. Of course resale is always going to be the legendary McIntosh corner. At least until a pass away or retire LOL!!

Side note my opinion of the re-release of this amps is not so positive... while they are still good products they are just not in the same league as there vintage point to point wired counter parts.

[winchester21]

I was ready to write the check for a new 275. After an extended tire kicking session of stepping back and really doing a detailed analysis- I avoided IMHO a big mistake by not buying the 275. Then I listened to an un modded 275 beside a set of VRD monoblocs belonging to a friend. The VRDS destroyed the 275 IMHO. The same 275 now sounds a good bit better and has narrowed the gap after 800.00 worth of tube upgrades. But still not as good IMHO- That being said- the VRDs were purchased for under 2k - The 275 new plus upgrades is well north of 5K.

I embarked on a 8 month search for a used pair of VRS for around 2 k and finally found them here on the forum, These amps - particulary at the 2k or even the aprox 3200.00 price of a new pair are true giant killers in every sense of the word . I have listened to carys- old macs- mew macs-vintage tubes of many brand names and some high end SS stuff. I have heard nothing that will touch them. Sure- they maybe something out there that will better the VRDs but I personally have not heard it.

Like another poster said- the macs are a quick fix no problem solution as a decent tube amp that will thrill 90% of the purchasers who are not freaks like the people on this forum. But- are they anywhere close to the VRD monoblocs-particulary in stock form?? Not even in the same ballpark.

I think that there is a klipsch forum member discount on the VRDs. Call Craig to confirm.

Highly individual subjective topic- just my 2cts worth.

[winchester21]

Foot note to your post- I too have rolled through 8 pieces of Mac stuff. I am down to one ss power amp - 2105 which I intend to keep forever. true you can have your fun with mac stuff then get your money back or even make money in some cases. If you buy a new 275 you will take a big hit when you sell it. I havwe seen nice as new examples in the 3000- 3500 range or even lower on occasion.One of these could easily be bought- enjoyed- and resold an no loss. VRDs take about a 1000.00 hit on the used market for some stupid reason. But they are very very difficult to find and are sold immediately upon listing. I ran a WTB ad to find mine. Got exactly one hit which resulted in the sale. Happy hunting.

[Audible Nectar]

To expand on Craig's and Winchester's comments, I also consider Mac amps a bit "tube wanting". In addition to the necessity to use good caps (especially on older vintage examples) to bring out more transparency, they seem to want the best tubes to bring out the best in them - I think, in part, because the extra stages "get in the way" sonically if the tubes aren't righteous.. I DO NOT recommend getting "roll happy" on an MC275 series V, as that amp has a habit of losing resistors when/if the power tubes fail. It is also a fixed bias amp, meaning that the power tubes you buy in the aftermarket should be selected in a current draw range best suited for Mac amps for optimum performance. I get nervous for posters asking about output tube rolling on MC275V - because that's not an amp well suited to power tube rolling. I recommend having power tubes installed by techs on MC275V - especially if it already had a resistor failure from the stock furnished tubes failing (somewhat common).

OTOH, VRDs are actually quite forgiving in most if not all instances with power tube failures. I've had a few[] Trust me - current production KT88-land is spotty at best, especially with the low cost offerings and especially at plate voltages around 500VDC. IF you get a disagreeable set of tubes, at least you won't be sending the amps back - just the tubes. Also, the tube rectifiers on VRDs (5AR4) serve to SLOWLY bring up the voltage on those power tubes at turn-on, which is easier on them than thwacking them with 500ish VDC all at once (such as on a Mac).

The VRDs have user adjustable manual bias - so your bias will be tweaked exactly for those tubes you are using.

With regards to resale, Macs do have an advantage in that they do hold value. However, if you were to spend comparable $$ on VRDs, you are gaining some in the performance department (again, that very clean/clear VRD front end - and omigawd the bass authority and control on VRDs is really good), so the performance is where the real value is. It would cost MUCH MORE for a conventional manufacturer to offer such a product.

In terms of serviceability, VRDs aren't really complex.....if in the unforseen event that Craig would no longer be with us on some future day, I would think that any competent tube technician could troubleshoot it (I believe VRDs are point-to-point also). Even the older circuit board versions aren't complex. And given the rare rate of any failures on VRDs, it's highly doubtful this would be an issue anytime soon. VRDs are a product built in the vein of those classic vintage gear builds, where you would have them 30 or more years later. When VRDs have an issue, it's the tubes within about a 99% certainty, and not the amps. Amortizing these over the expected lifespan make these an EXTREMELY good value.

Another amp choice I thought about a great deal was a set of MC60 with Craig's associated handiwork, but already owning MC30s and understanding the clarity/transparency argument leaning "pro-VRDs" made that decision rather easy.

I would state that VRDs are not only an equal of the Mac offerings of similar power, they EXCEED them in all those picky details that we audio freaks obsess about. And if you take a set of VRDs "all the way" - with premium caps and tubes, they again elevate in class, to a point that I am amazed I even own anything that good. Beating them would involve spending about double...maybe more, and on some more esoteric topologies such as OTL (Atma-Sphere) or some top flight 300B (Wavac, anyone?). Once I heard VRDs, I didn't think much about single ended anymore, and while "expensive" to me, worth EVERY penny.

So VRDs have thier own sense of value where it counts - the PERFORMANCE. And FWIW, I don't think those VRDs had to sell that low at 2K.....that's more like a proper asking price for them when they were selling for $2800 list six years ago. I think, in part, that those amps were offered/sold in much the same vein that forum members typically sell - at attractive prices that will make the sale go quicker without feeling like you're strongarming anyone. But notice how fast those amps sold at 2K - like......INSTANTLY.

[winchester21]

To put things into a practical perspective in layman terms

I dont know a cap from a resistor. No scientific knowledge whatsoever. I am a trial and error component swapper. When I came to this froum17 months ago I got some pretty good advice from senoir members of this forum. I tried to do it MY way- with a bunch of powerhouse SS components rather than listening to people who knew their stuff. It did not work. I ended up buying the wrong components for my application. Fortunately, I was able to sell them to others for more suitable applications. I had never heard of VRDs as they had no mainstream name recognition(like Mac). This is my 4th set of amplifiers.

The experts- AN and Craig in this thread know their stuff. The information provided is 100% sales comission free- un baised- solid gold.Take it and run with it. VRDs- Peach preamp- Jolida tube CD and modded K horns with 2 good TTs- I am done throwing money away to get the 2 ch sound that I want. I am now in the mode of enjoying my system rather than trying to get it right. The VRDs are well worth whatever you have to pay for them. Friends listem to my system and are amazed by the small sum invested and are sick over what they paid to professional installers and high end audio stores to get the pretty blue lights

The technical aspects of repair issues discussed certainly further support the chioce of the VRDs

[jwc]

I own four MC275 V's. It is interesting that about 18 months ago, I bought my first one and sold it after 6 months. After getting advice from the AK Mac forum to try cables and roll tubes and such.......I gave up w/o a change to the amp and sold it. I was bummed thinking I would have to buy the amp and so many stated i needed to change out the tubes and do all this finicky cable stuff.

Anyway......I became less stiff about the process and bought a pair of them....not for a horn system but one that needed lots of power. Anyway.....the stock tubes on the new amps are really bad. Just swapping out to some "decent" tubes make a very noticeable difference. I now have another pair now. I got lucky on some used deals in which I could get consecutive serial numbers on minty amps.

I didn't even try the stock tubes the second time around. Immediately changed them out.

I've heard VRD's twice on two different horn systems. I like them too. There is a reason they are so popular with the heritage lineup. I've never A/Bed the two against each other. If I did....I wouldn't want the stock tubes that come with the modern day version MC275 to compare vs the VRD.

I get to hear the VRD's with a Peach in 2 weeks at Cigarbum's place..Yeah

jc

[SilverSport]

I thank Audible Nectar and Craig every time I listen to my VRDs...wonderful amps...

Bill

[winchester21]

I thank them as well not just for the VRD tip but also for my selecting heritage early on .

It is indeed a shame that a company such as mac would ship their beautiful 275 with garbage tubes. This about the 10th owner that I have heard repeat the same story. No excuse for this. They could raise the price say 500.00 - put good tubes in place of the crummy ones - people would still buy them and be more satisfied with the product.

[wpines]

VRD monoblocks would need to go on top of the Belle's in my setup. Has anyone put their tube amp on top of their speaker? Any problem with that, audible or otherwise?

[Audible Nectar]

I wouldn't think that would be desireable......maybe others could comment, but I would think that the ideal would be to isolate the tubes from vibration.

I have seen it done with solid state gear but not sure if I would recommend that with tubes.

[Boxx]

I can't make a comparison between the two, however as a Mac guy, I can say that my two 275's paired with my McIntosh XRT18's and a C2200 pre amp is heavenly.

Is it 3 minutes to Miller time yet, sorry wrong thread.

[joessportster]

Do not put your amps on top of your speakers. I just tried this and found it created noise in the top end and after speaking with a very knowledgeable member ( J Bryan ) I was informed amps create a magnetic field that can affect the drivers. And in my case they definately did. Joe

[winchester21]

Dont do that. The idea is to keep stuff away from other stuff within reason. I put my VRDs on a cheapie metal/ wood cart shelf out in front and away from the other stuff with plenty of air space from the other shelves.- I would also consider a very sturdy wall shelf for them. Whatever it takes- do it. VRDs at any cost. The ends in this case jutify the means.[6]

[winchester21]

Another twist to this scenario

I have limited access to a new 275 with new set of 2007 or 2008 K horns- 220 pre- rega CD player- rega TT. We cranked it up to past 12:00 on the preamp- while swilling down a couple of bottles of killer wine. Pretty awesome. Gotta admit. Tom Petty Mudcrutch audiophile CD - came with the vinyl- CD- Did a comparison with my VRDs at 12:30 on the Peach volume control. Rattling the windows- cracking the plaster- I have my preconcieved notions but IMHO the VRD clearly won the race. The VRD is sooo gin clear at high volumes. Bear in mind that my K horns are highly modded 2" trackhorn examples from 1984 production. Monster JBL drivers. crites 125 new tweeters- ALK universal clones- 2 " trachorns- . The modded K horks and the VRDs murdered the 275 IMHO with the latest/ greatest K horns(unmodded). Maybe not a fair contest but the VRDs love running at high volume levels.Checking in at 60 watts in the linear mode they pack a ridiculious punch for a high end tube box.

If you dont get cold chills from listening to this setup you aint breathing.

The 275s are imposible to say anything bad about- but the VRDS are in a undefinable class alone at their price point in so many catagories.

The more I listen and the more I think about it- They are different machines for different applications and buyer scenarios. Unfair comparioson.

[Jones20992]

On 5/10/2010 at 4:49 PM, Boxx said:

I can't make a comparison between the two, however as a Mac guy, I can say that my two 275's paired with my McIntosh XRT18's and a C2200 pre amp is heavenly.

Is it 3 minutes to Miller time yet, sorry wrong thread.

I take it your using the 275's in mono for 150wpc, have you ever used just one 275 with the XRT18's? I ask because I have a MKIV 275 and just bought a pair of XRT18's that I should receive in the next week.