Lacquer vs Polyurethane

[SuBXeRo]

Redoing my heresys, lacquer or polyurethane? Prefer to stick with water based if possible but i really want what will look best. Looking to get a high gloss finish. I heard poly turns yellow over time?

[pzannucci]

They both can look excellent. It is really a matter of the quality of prep work done.

To me, poly usually has better durabitilty. If you live in a normal household that may be helpful. On the other hand, I have always thought that lacquer was easier to fix if something did happen. The yellowing usually isn't an issue, especially on wood, if it happens it will be gradual and take a long time. You have to choose the balance right for you.

1200+ sandpaper, buffer and car wax. You can make them both look like glass.

[JBryan]

If your Heresies were originally finished at the factory, they were either lacquered or oiled - as noted on the label. From a purists' or collectors' standpoint, you'll want to keep the original finish but if that's not possible, refinishing in lacquer or oil to match the original will not harm the value as much as a non-original finish. If you're not interested in maintaining their value or re-selling, then its a matter of aesthetics and skill. An Oil finish (linseed) would be the easiest to prep and apply while lacquer would be more difficult (relatively speaking) and both will take longer to dry than poly - especially water-based. OTOH, I'm not much of a polyurethane fan - particularly water-based poly. While its easier to work with than other finishes, mistakes tend to be obvious and the finish has a thin and brittle quality about it that most woodworkers and collectors can spot from 10' away - especially the water-based poly. Be mindful that the preparation will be determined by the original finish - you can't simply apply poly over lacquer and if the speaker has an existing oil finish - you're pretty much stuck with that because oil penetrates the wood and can't easily be removed or sealed. Also, keep in mind that unlike poly, lacquer can be repaired and re-amalgamated. Whatever you decide, remember that Dust is the Devil! Have fun.

[SuBXeRo]

My heresys are HWO and i have sanded things down as far as i feel is hould go to actually leave some veneer on while working out as many blemishes as possible. Some blemishes have gone straight down through the veneer so i can really only soften those up to try and make them blend.

I will be staining them a dark espresso. I like black speakers but because this is real wood veneer i'd like to have them retain a more classy look. My gut feeling is that a lighter stain would show the belmishes more since some of the gouges (most) don't go with the grain at all. Basically i had it in my mind that i wanted a stain close to that of what is on the ICON W speakers (that espresso). I also wanted to have some of the grain show so maybe not as dark as i am thinking.

As it stands, i have had to remove both of the stickers in order to really sand everything properly. I did however take photos close up of the stickers for proof. They probably have lost value just in that but i couldnt salvage them and their present condition made them worse off. I am also putting in speaker terminal cups and putting in crites sonicaps. The way i look at it is that they mean alot to me because of the work i put into them, all of the drivers are original and i am giving them a new lease on life. Someone looking for an unaltered pair need not look here as it would not meet their needs but in my eyes a properly restored set with a more modern flare should have interest as well. Main goal is to have these coupled with a sub in the future.

I have used water based poly only in the past and their blemishes definitly show, especially if too much poly accumulates and dries and isnt sanded properly between coats. I will be doing this on my patio and i plan to make a T jig so i can have 1 heresy on each top of the T so i can do even coats all around them. If it smells, it smells, i'd prefer it not to but if i am going to get a better finish with a different product then i will consider switching. I want a protective coating on it thats water proof, it can't hurt IMO.

[jacksonbart]

You will get high as a kite off of polyurethane

[Marvel]

You will get high as a kite off of polyurethane

And NOT from the lacquer?

My Heresy IIs have no labels, but they are genuine Klipsch. The inspection stickers are on the inside, but alas, no serial numbers. The original owner must have removed them from the black lacquered cabs for esthetics, and I dont really mind a whole lot, but it would be nice to have the SNs.

Bruce

[jacksonbart]

You will get high as a kite off of polyurethane

And NOT from the lacquer?

I don't know I have never used lacquer, just the polyurethane, which the few times I have used was outside or in an open garage.

[inked]

I'm a custom woodworker/cabinet maker/home builder so take my 22 years of experience and do what you will.

Both the poly and lacquer will yellow over time...but not as bad as you think. What yellows the finish is UV rays, but trust me, you 'll hardly notice and it takes years for it to yellow.

Secondly, you are mistaken when you say a lighter stain will show the imperfections. Where there are gouges in the veneer exposing the MDF, the MDF will absorb the stain and basically create a dark blotch. The lighther the stain, the less noticeable the blotch will be. Any scratches or gouges will show way more with a darker stain.

Also, keep in mind, prior to staining use a wood conditioner before you apply the stain. It will help the wood absorb the stain more evenly and not create foggy blotches. This is usually only required with softer wood like fir, poplar, hemlock, etc. but I always use conditioner with harder woods such as oak and walnut.

As far as finish, I would recommend the easiest application with a nice furniture like appearance...and that's a hand rubbed poly. It's easy to apply Unless you have access to an HVLP pump (High Volume Low Pressure) I would stay away from lacquer. Lacquer requires a sanding sealer before you apply it. You can't brush or roll lacquer...trust me. The benefit of lacquer though is its durability and application. It drys very quickly and second and third coats can be applied with 20 mins of one another. The hand rubbed poly will require at least 3 coats and the drying times will be longer.

Unless you have an HVLP, use the hand rubbed poly. It's durable, easy application...and it doesn't smell too bad.

Keep in mind, if you go with a water based poly it will require more coats as opposed to an oil poly.

Good luck and have fun!!

[Coytee]

The inspection stickers are on the inside, but alas, no serial numbers. The original owner must have removed them from the black lacquered cabs for esthetics, and I dont really mind a whole lot, but it would be nice to have the SNs.

Just scribble 1 & 2 on them and if you feel especially devious, "PWK" next to that... and you'll have instant classics

[6]

[greg928gts]

I agree with inked, hand-rubbed poly is a good way to go. I have used the wipe-on polyurethane from Minwax, and it is a very easy finish to apply and the results are very good.

But you did say you wanted a high gloss finish, and the wipe-on doesn't look that way.

inked also said that you can't brush or roll on lacquer, and he's absolutely correct. You could always try lacquer from a spray can. Minwax makes the best spray-can lacquer there is. It's very easy to apply, and the quality of the product is excellent. It is a nitro-cellulose lacquer and is therefore very easy to wipe out and repair with lacquer thinner if that's necessary. Plan on buying a respirator, even for outdoor use.

As for the staining, the scratches and bits that are too deep to sand out have a color to them, usually from the previous finish. If you clean the wood with a solvent, you should get an idea of how dark that color is. Any stain you use is going to catch in those little scratches and bits and they will show up even more because they will be darker. If you can do some experimenting and figure out ahead of time what that darker color is going to be when the stain catches in the scratches and bits, you can then use a stain that is close to that darker color and they will hide fairly well. Probably easier said than done.

Greg

[muel]

"...Plan on buying a respirator, even for outdoor use."

+1 on the respirator! Your brain and lungs will thank you!

Good info here: http://www.finewoodworking.com/pages/w00112.asp

[jacksonbart]

Poly tastes so damn bad

[dwillie]

You will get high as a kite off of polyurethane

And NOT from the lacquer?

My Heresy IIs have no labels, but they are genuine Klipsch. The inspection stickers are on the inside, but alas, no serial numbers. The original owner must have removed them from the black lacquered cabs for esthetics, and I dont really mind a whole lot, but it would be nice to have the SNs.

Bruce

With no serial numbers and black laquered cabs, they may not be real Klipsch speakers. Maybe someone built the cabs from parts. d

[SuBXeRo]

i have used waterbased polyurethane from minwax and ace brand to seal my tv riser and my components stand. For that i used a foam brush to apply. I didnt know you can hand rub poly on?

I really dont want to do alight color on these cabs so i think i am going to chance it with dark stain any ways. I would use a wood putty but they never stain right and i think itll go more harm than good..

Al of the tips i have been getting are soo useful. I think i will forgo the lacquer and oil based poly on both smell factor and ease of use. I will use an oil based stain though.

Is there any issue using an oil based stain and water based poly? I did this on my fish tank stand it seemed to have worked out very nicely. If i will be better off and get a much better finish with an oil based poly and its worth it over water based i think i could swing that. I like using foam brushes are there any othr better applicators?

Also note that i will be doing this on my patio and im in an apt so the project needs to stay outside until its done. The patio faces west so we get the sunset, that shouldnt be too bad right? Its a covered patio as well.

[Marvel]

You will get high as a kite off of polyurethane

And NOT from the lacquer?

My Heresy IIs have no labels, but they are genuine Klipsch. The inspection stickers are on the inside, but alas, no serial numbers. The original owner must have removed them from the black lacquered cabs for esthetics, and I dont really mind a whole lot, but it would be nice to have the SNs.

Bruce

With no serial numbers and black laquered cabs, they may not be real Klipsch speakers. Maybe someone built the cabs from parts. d

Oh, they're real Klipsch. I have no doubt about that.

[inked]

i have used waterbased polyurethane from minwax and ace brand to seal my tv riser and my components stand. For that i used a foam brush to apply. I didnt know you can hand rub poly on?

I really dont want to do alight color on these cabs so i think i am going to chance it with dark stain any ways. I would use a wood putty but they never stain right and i think itll go more harm than good..

Al of the tips i have been getting are soo useful. I think i will forgo the lacquer and oil based poly on both smell factor and ease of use. I will use an oil based stain though.

Is there any issue using an oil based stain and water based poly? I did this on my fish tank stand it seemed to have worked out very nicely. If i will be better off and get a much better finish with an oil based poly and its worth it over water based i think i could swing that. I like using foam brushes are there any othr better applicators?

Also note that i will be doing this on my patio and im in an apt so the project needs to stay outside until its done. The patio faces west so we get the sunset, that shouldnt be too bad right? Its a covered patio as well.

I call it a hand rubbed poly but minwax sells both oil and water based wipe on polys. It's very simple to apply...just a nice clean cotton rag and it wipes on. The advantage to using the wipe on is it leaves no brush strokes that china bristle brushes and foam brushing sometimes will do. I also like using fine coarse steel wool between applications of the poly. It provides a much smoother finish with less abrasion. You'll want to apply at least 3 coats of poly, especially if you're using the water based.

There is no problem using a water based poly over an oil stain. I still highly recommend using a pre stain wood condtioner before you stain your speakers. Again, minwax sells the conditioner and you just wipe it on with a rag, let it sit for 10 - 15 mins, wipe off the excess then apply the stain. It will provide a much better consistency as the wood takes the stain.

As was mentioned above, the wipe on poly doesn't provide a high gloss finish, it's more of a satin/semi gloss finish, but I think the term "high gloss" finish you are implying is not what you are after. Furniture and cabinets very rarely have a high gloss finish. The wipe on poly from minwax, I believe does come in a semi gloss, which I would probably use.

Obviously a controlled environment for this application would be best, but if you have to do it outside, then so be it. What you could do is apply the pre stain wood conditioner and stain on outside. Leave it out there for as long as you can then bring it inside. You'll want to wait 24 hours before you apply the poly. If you go with the water based poly, you'll be fine applying it inside, Water based polys are not that toxic. Just apply it next to a window and keep a fan on. Let it ventilate, you'll be good. This of course coming from someone that sprays lacquer in my shop without respirators!! [+o(] I can't remember the last time I've used a respirator.

Well, good luck!!

[SuBXeRo]

Inked, you have been a phenomenal help. In the past i have used semi-gloss brush on water-based polys and the sheen on them is not bad because they have been going on furniture. I kind of wanted these speakers to stand out more and there is a high gloss option which is above the semi-gloss. Brush strokes are a consideration, id prefer not to have any so rub on is a consideration. I need to go to lowes and see what they have, ace as well since a boutique style store like ace might cary some more specific products. Everything has to be done outside, i also dont have the room in my apartment either haha. I have had pretty good results outside. I can take the cabs in over night though so i will probably do that. I hope they have a high gloss rub on.

My other projects i never sanded down terribly well, i mean, i did sanding but nothing like the care i have taken with these cabs. Thusly the polys went on and did their job but with raised grains and what not the finish isnt perfectly smoothe, something i knew was going to happen but was something i was prepared to deal with.

[JJkizak]

There is also a new Miniwax polyurethane/stain premixed. If you use the pre-stain sealer Miniwax it works Ok but it will block some of the penetration in some of the areas that you want to penetrate.

If you use the Miniwax sanding sealer it will block about 75% of your stain color but it sure fills up the micro grain holes. (3 coats, heavy sanding) If you finish to a glass finish make sure your grain is filled or 6 months later you will be sanding/buffing again. Lacquer can be patched easily buy MiniwaxPoly clear/satin cannot if the finish is like glass. You have to spray the whole unit. Use the 1200 wet before you buff. Make sure you use the foam pads for buffing as they almost eliminate burn-through. You should have a minimum of 3 coats of clear before buffing or you will break through and be really mad.

JJK

[WMcD]

I'm a big fan of wipe on varnish.

Another issue, though, is the stain.

You should consider

http://www.garrettwade.com/behlen-solar-lux-ngr-dye-stain/p/99P10.01/

My understanding is that most stains are comprised of a thin oil as a vehicle in which is suspended colloidal (very, very, very small) pieces of pigment. This is pretty much like paint. In the paint the vehicle will solidify but the oil in the stains will not.

The problem with these types of stains is that the colloidal particles are drawn into end grain by capillary action. This is why if you apply these stains to a raw piece of wood, the end-grain gets very dark.

One solution to the problem is to seal the endgrain with shellac. Depending on the number of applications of shellac, you retard the absorption of the colloidal coloring.

I believe that commercial products which are sold to prevent blotching on the major (non-endgrain) surfaces are simply shellac. In the same way, the shellac as a pre-treatment is drawn into porous areas and then blocks off the capillaries to some extent so that the colloids are not drawn in.

I believe that if you have scratches and dents, the issue is that these open up endgrain or create a similar structure which wil trap colloids -- and these cause a dark area of stain. Therefore you can put on a coat of pre-treatment. It will sink into scratches, and then you can use something like 400 paper to remove it from the main surface. That way the scratches are sealed.

The better solution is to use a dye, as you see in the link. It is made up of a colored fluid which does not contain colloids.

I used it on a mahogany plank with a little pre-treatment with shellac which may or may not have been needed. The endgrain was fairly uniform in color with the rest of the wood.

The bottom line is that dyes work better than colloidal stains particularly when you have endgrain or damaged main surfaces.

WMcD

[Blvdre]

+1 on the dye suggestion. I've built a few drum kits, and lots of singles and found out early on that dye is the way to go for depth and eveness of color.