Are my Fortes getting old...or me?

[JD15]

New to the forum, great info here. I try to avoid visiting often as I always seem to find something that I didn’t know existed, but now I need. [] Further, it legitimizes my craziness by proving there is a whole community that is seemingly more afflicted than me.

I have owned a pair of early Fortes for about five years. I love them dearly, but I find that they are harsh/fatiguing at higher volumes. I mainly listen to rock, with a smattering of blues, classical and other material. My system consists of a nearly vintage (early 90’s) Denon POA 2400 amp, a YS Audio Symphonies pre (a pretty good Chinese tube unit) and a Rotel RCC 955 CD player. The room is about 15 x 23 with hardwood floors, and not much in the way of upholstered stuff - a pretty live room.

I bought Fortes due to the fact that a friend had a pair when they originally came out back in the day with similar amplification as mine and I absolutely loved the dynamics of these speakers. I play drums and found that these speakers reproduce the slam of percussion like nothing I’ve heard, along with internal organ-punishing bass. What I don’t recall in my friend’s old system is the harshness. Am I getting old and my hearing is not the same, or are my components getting old and not producing the same sound?

I have swapped out the Rotel with an OPPO DV983 and removed the pre from the system to see if there was any difference. Not anything positive, without the pre it lacked the presence that the tubes seem to provide. Is a tube amp the way to go, when I can afford it? Or do I have to pony up more $ for a better CD player?

I have seen several threads regarding crossover and cap upgrades. Is this the potential issue or are my upstream components the source? I plan on being buried in my Fortes, so the idea of messing with them seems sacrilegious. But, if this is a normal course of actions with a 25 year old Klipsch, I will try to get over it.

If you made it to the end of this post and can shed any light on my situation, thank you.

JD

[TheEvan]

To answer your question, both.[]

They shouldn't be harsh. A tube amp could only help, but you should be fine with what you have. And yes, the room is hard. I'm wondering of the crossover needs refreshed.

[tragusa3]

My LaScala seemed that way at first. A combination of room treatments, fresh caps and Audyssey EQ has completely removed that concern. I think the largest player in taming things was the room treatment. Horns have a field day in an untreated room. I think most of the bad rep that Klipsch receives is not for the speakers, but that 95% of listeners give no attention to the room.

[Marvel]

JD,

Welcome to the forums! We're mostly all a bunch of crazies here, who love Klipsch...

I don't know much about your gear. The OPPO should be fine, and if I understand correctly, the only thing you haven't tried different is the Deno. Perhaps you could find another amp to try.Maybe borrow from a friend...

Regarding the Fortes, at 25 years, the caps probably do need to be replaced. The parts for that will run around $50 if you want to do it yourself. Forum member Bob Crites can help you out by supplying the parts, or you can send him your crossovers and he can do the work. Turn around time is fast. You can give him a call too. Other could also do the work.

Possibly the diaphragms in the mid and tweeter drivers, but I would just do the caps first.

It's not sacrilegious at all to repair and update parts. They are speakers, with components that age, not a Van Gogh or Vermeer.

And the room, as has been stated is hard. Smme rugs might just help that out, or other treatments.

Bruce

ps - We can't help the part about you getting old... []

[willland]

JD,

Welcome to the forum.

The Forte's are awesome. Fatiguing/harsh are not adjectives I would ever use to describe my Forte experience. I doubt your Denon POA-2400 is the culprit. I have found Denon 80's/90's amps and integrated amps to mate very well with Klipsch Heritage(Heresy,Forte,Quartet). They are neutral/warm, fast, punchy, and very detailed with them. They really shine when the kick drums get to pounding. They never seem to struggle with fast transients, as a matter of fact those Denon amps perform more like the high end amps of the time, in my opinion.

Considering the age of your Fortes, rebuilt crossovers should be on your short list(mine too) and consider the titanium tweeter diaphragms from Bob Crites. Your "live" room seems to be the probable cause of your issues. Whatever you can to do to add some cushioning material(throw rugs, fluffy pillows, drapes, etc.) sure can't hurt. My family room is "live" also(16 x 31, ceramic tile, 12ft ceilings) but once I added some of the suggested items, it did improve.

Bill

[Groomlakearea51]

As Will, Marvel, Tragusa, and Evan said, capacitors will certainly be a great, if not dramatic improvement given the age.

[H]

[sebrof]

I'm gonna go against the grain a little here and say that especially in your live room your Fortes may very well sound a bit harsh. And you may not have heard it with your friend's years ago because you didn't spend time with them. My KHorns sounded harsh to me before I set them and my room up properly.

Besides the cap upgrades (I did that with my KHorns and it helped) you may want to try toeing the speakers in to where they cross a couple of feet in front of you. This is pretty much how I see any similar speaker set up at shows. I spoke to 2 manufacturers/exhibitors about that last weekend at a show and they both said that's the best way to do it when you have that HF horn. You might want to try that first, then taming the room a bit.

[moray james]

Welcome to the forum JD15: you already know the answer to your question but I will tell you again. Yes you are both older and not as good as you used to be. That goes for your car too. So buy new diaphragms for your horns and rebuld your crossovers. The more serious the rebuild the better for you as in caps and inductors air core 16 gage or larger. You will have speakers that you never knew you had and wished you had done this years ago, The vast improvement in your speakers will justify any need to upgrade components that are holding your speakers back. There you go. That really did not hurt and just like at the dentist when he's done you will have a nice big smile on your face.

[JD15]

So what I've learned from my intervention is:

1. Kill the room acoustics a bit and
2. Redo the xover or caps

RE: #2, can old caps cause this kind of problem, what happens when good caps go bad? I read as much as I could on this stuff but I have very little experience with electronics parts. From what I can tell it is not a huge outlay of cash, so it seems to be a good idea. Unfortunately, as much of a DIY guy that I am, I'm soldering impaired. So I would send away to Mr. Crites.

Now, as far as new tweeter diaphrams, that just seems like blasphemy. But again, if this is a normal mod, I think I can accept it. Can it be reversed if for some unknown reason it doesn't work for me? Is this a DIY deal? I haven't been inside my speakers, so I don't know how things are hooked up.

I have also learned that the forum is indeed full of crazy people: nice, helpful, patient, crazy people.

God bless and thank you,

JD

[willland]

what happens when good caps go bad?

When good caps go bad(usually due to age), the sound becomes less detailed and has a slight muffled "sheet over speaker" sound. New crossovers will open them up and noticeably broaden the soundstage.

as much of a DIY guy that I am, I'm soldering impaired. So I would send away to Mr. Crites.

Good thinking or you can just buy new crossovers($235.00/pair) from Bob and he will build them with high quality parts neatly organized on a plank of beautiful aromatic red cedar.

Now, as far as new tweeter diaphrams, that just seems like blasphemy. But again, if this is a normal mod, I think I can accept it. Can it be reversed if for some unknown reason it doesn't work for me? Is this a DIY deal? I haven't been inside my speakers, so I don't know how things are hooked up.

Blasphemy? Probably not. Beneficial? IMO, yes definitely. Easy 30 minute install for both tweeters. Easily reversed, 30 minutes to switch back out. Install one and do an A/B comparison. You should notice more detail and extension(less distortion) when the high highs come on. If you wish after install, sell the phenolic diaphragms on Ebay and recoupe some or all you spent on the "Crites tites". Or just keep and store as spare parts.

I have also learned that the forum is indeed full of crazy people: nice, helpful, patient, crazy people.

All that is true, especially the crazy part.[]

Bill

[cheric]

If you love the Forte sound then don't change anything but the caps (as a maintenance). Some of us don't care for the titanium diaphragms and do not consider replacing the stock ones with the new titanium ones as an upgrade.

If you change the key components inside the cabinets, you may no longer have the "Klipsch sound"; wasn't that the reason you bought Klipsch speakers in the first place? You want to keep your speakers (and the sound) as original as possible, don't you?

Unless the parts are damaged, why replacing them? Work on the room treatment and speaker location instead.

[tromprof]

Fortes were my first Klipsch speaker and I owned them for over 20 years. As much as I loved them, I too thought they were a bit bright and piercing up high. They eventually become basement speakers as I moved on up the line. Before I sold them I hooked them up to the tubes running my La Scalas, and dam* if that harshness wasn't gone. They sounded so good when I demoed them to the guy who bought them it was hard to let them go. Sure, after 20 years the caps could probably stand replacing, but give them a try with a nice tube amp, you might be surprised at the sound improvement.

[John Chi-town]

As others have mentioned replace the caps on the stock crossovers or have Bob Crites build you a new pair with sonic caps and a better auto transformer. As far as not replacing the diaphragms with titanium, that is a personal taste choice. I can tell you that the Heresy III & Cornwall III use titanium diaphragms, and have the "Klipsch" sound. In any case if you decide to upgrade the diaphragms, just keep the originals and you can always put back the way they were if you are unhappy with the sound, or find a buyer who does not want the modifications.

As far as DIY ease, all that is required is a Philips head screw driver to remove the crossovers and passive radiators. From there you can access all internal parts. Take a look at Bob Crites website where you can find a detailed step by step instruction with photo's on how to remove the crossovers as well as replace the diaphragms.

Best of luck!

[JD15]

Alright, now I'm right back to waffling about the course of action with all the different approaches. I will still start with room treatments, and now maybe monkey with placement. I do have a friend with a receiver, which I believe is an old Marrantz tube unit. I'll see if I can borrow that. As none of these involve any dismantling, no harm or risk.

I still have my concerns with the caps and crossover mods and definately the tweeter diaphragms regarding addressing my issues. It seems they all enchance/accentuate the high end. So tough to assess online, as one "man's rolled off highs" are another man's "tube warmth".

Tube amplification has always been on my wish list of things to try, but I'm still trying to hash out the types, the amount of power and the pros and cons. Will it deliver the low end thump that a 200 wpc SS amp will give you? I have seen that a lot of forum members that love low power tube amps with their Klipsch, but I don't know what their musical diet is. I think it's cool that you could feel Charlie Parker inhale, but it's not that high on my priority list.

Thanks for all the continued input, no matter what direction it sends me [*-)]

[Taz]

I don't speak for anyone but myself. I am getting older, fatter, and uglier.

[Ironsave]

My Heresies are from 1980.

I replaqced the caps about a year ago; and I did an A-B comparison while doing this.

As many have said; it was like removing a sheet from in front of the speaker.

The recapped side was more detailed, and definitely sounded much clearer versus the non recapped speaker.

(It sounded more muffled and not as articulate).

A good song for this testing for me was "Tusk" by Fleetwood Mac.

I suck at soldering also, but it was easy; maybe 1 hour each side.

Room treatments will help tremendously, a throw rug, and pillows, etc.

I use an equalizer from my source; this is just to tame the Heresey mids a bit......

Perhaps something else to consider.......

Good Luck.......

[JD15]

Ironsave, it seems that more folks say there is a noticeable difference after recapping vs. those that say it's a slight or imaginary improvement. I actually replaced the tubes in my preamp recently and then brought it in for service, as I thought the caps needed to be replaced. I just wasn't happy with the sound of my system and felt it wasn't as clear as it could be. Perhaps the caps in the speakers are the obvious answer.

Regarding "Tusk" as a tester, it's funny my friend and I always liked the way horns sounded on horns. What better way to reproduce the music, eh.

I wanted to include a picture of my crossover in my post, but can't figure out how.[:$] Basically it's pretty tight, no printed circuit board, just a bunch of stuff attached to the back of the round terminal cup (is that what it's called?). I think I have to send them and have them done.

Curtains and such are on the shopping list, just have to find the time and get the boss on it.

Re: equilizers, I was brought into the audio world with the audiophile no-tone-controls-needed ethos, so I just can't consider an equilizer.

Thanks all again for your help.

JD

[willland]

Re: equilizers, I was brought into the audio world with the audiophile no-tone-controls-needed ethos, so I just can't consider an equilizer.

Yeah, I think we all have read that in the snooty audiophile mags.[:|] But guess what, when music is recorded in a studio, the sound engineer uses mixers and equalizers. As a matter of fact, they use them at live concerts also. Okay I will shut up.[:#]

Bill

[JD15]

Could it be seen as an input vs. output kind of scenario? As in, the engineers do their final mix which produces the end result, then anything after that is just monkeying with the finished recording?

Just poking the nest...[6]

[willland]

Could it be seen as an input vs. output kind of scenario? As in, the engineers do their final mix which produces the end result, then anything after that is just monkeying with the finished recording?

Just poking the nest...

I am not sure. That is just my justification for when I use equalization sometimes.[] I do know this, over equalization produces an artificial sound that can result in other bad sounding anomalies.[N]

Bill