My jubilee setup

[bracurrie]

Well my 16 yr old son requested the use of the Jub clones to DJ a party at a private home. He is a stand-up bass player and violinist so he has a really keen ear. He has been helpful in judging the effect of setups with crossover points, EQs, placement and delay of tweeters. The room was much bigger than either of us expected. 30 foot ceilings 75 deep and about 30 feet wide. We setup in one corner where the two walls were made of mostly glass. (McMansion city). Lots of hard surfaces and only 40% area carpet coverage. We also brought the Sunfire sub which worked better than I expected placed in the corner.

Anyway, the setup sounded pretty good using his front end with my driverack and adcom amps. We didn't have time to pink the room or make adjustments for the room. However the tweeters, while wowing the non audiophile audience, were sorely lacking in filling the room. The sweet spot was 10 to 15 feet in front of the speakers withing 5 feet of the middle. Away from that spot the image degraded badly and due to the nature of the room almost sounded harsh. The mid to bottom end was spectacular most everywhere in the room. The owner was very curious. I pointed him here to investigate.

Ok, so now I will start thinking about alternative tweeter setups. BEC said the faital LTH142 horn with a HF140 compression driver could be a consideration. There have been strong thoughts on K402 horns with K drivers.

Which Klipsch driver is typically used with the K402?

Are there any other tweeter setups that may work better in a large room? Should a three way be considered?

Brad

[Coytee]

There have been strong thoughts on K402 horns with K drivers.

Perhaps for a reason you are now discovering? (I know nothing about your HF horn so can't and won't say it's inferior) BUT... the Klipsch solutions have been... here's that darn word again, "fully engineered" to sound good! They also have that constant directivity stuff built into them (more technical stuff that I know little about)

Which Klipsch driver is typically used with the K402?

In the home, 2-way setup the K-69 tweeter driver is used. In the 3-way setup, they use a different driver on the K402 (don't know which one... the K1132 or K1133) and then use the K-69 mated with the K510 horn lens as the tweeter. This is for gut-busting volume as I understand.

Some are now using the TAD 4002 driver with excellent results however, from what you've said about budget constraints, I'd forget about this one.

[jwc]

The K1132 is the in house built (in Hope) 2 way driver. The K1133 in the in house built midrange driver which you would see on the three way systems.

Roy has settings for the home use of the jubilee using the K69 or Tad4002 in two way.

jc

[Travis In Austin]

There have been strong thoughts on K402 horns with K drivers.

Perhaps for a reason you are now discovering? (I know nothing about your HF horn so can't and won't say it's inferior) BUT... the Klipsch solutions have been... here's that darn word again, "fully engineered" to sound good! They also have that constant directivity stuff built into them (more technical stuff that I know little about)

Which Klipsch driver is typically used with the K402?

In the home, 2-way setup the K-69 tweeter driver is used. In the 3-way setup, they use a different driver on the K402 (don't know which one... the K1132 or K1133) and then use the K-69 mated with the K510 horn lens as the tweeter. This is for gut-busting volume as I understand.

Some are now using the TAD 4002 driver with excellent results however, from what you've said about budget constraints, I'd forget about this one.

None of that really matters does it? He can't buy a K402 horn, and he sure can't make one or have one made. Klipsch isn't in the parts business. I'm guessing that is why Bob is suggesting those alternative horns, at least I think.

But isn't there a more fundamental problem, without the dirty curves on whatever bass bin and top horn he is using AND the polar plots there is no way to determine how well any particular horn, driver, crossover (digital or passive) is going to work. In his description of the problems he was experiencing in the large room he is experiencing beaming. There are too many factors to even begin to approach this fundamentaly. There are just too many unknowns and now there is the complication of a different room. He could very well need a three-way system if he continues to want this application to be primarily for his son's live performances. He may even want to double stack whatever bass bins those are. If they are mainly going to be for the home, like Mike said at the beginning, the size/particulars of the room are going to be important, together with the proper data on the horns.

You can't take one piece of the puzzle, a horn, driver, etc. and expect to have any improvement in his situation. Like you said, those systems are fully tested, and based on those tests, both in the lab and on site, are engineered and designed to fit in a number of applicatoins. TAD 4002 drivers could be the worst possible thing for what he is using, or the very best thing -- there is simply no way to know because there is information from which to even make an educated guess. I think anyone suggesting various parts and pieces from a Klipsch system isn't really helping him and will only get him spun around, because there isn't enough information to tell how one or more pieces is going to interact with his other pieces.

Since is sounds like Bob is at least somewhat familar with what he using his best bet, IMHO, is to go with that. The rest of us are just pissing in the wind.

Travis

[Coytee]

There have been strong thoughts on K402 horns with K drivers.

None of that really matters does it? He can't buy a K402 horn

Interesting point... I interpreted his "thoughts" comment to mean that he is beginning to have some thoughts on acquiring some 402's (hence his questions about which driver is used). I didn't view it as him reviewing the thread comments and merely repeating that others have suggested the 402.

Given my propensity for confusion, you are probably correct.

Side note: I once asked Roy how large of a place these might fill.... I don't remember his comment (400 seats, 1,200 seats?) but it was probably much larger than the room mentioned.

[Travis In Austin]

None of that really matters does it? He can't buy a K402 horn

Interesting point... I interpreted his "thoughts" comment to mean that he is beginning to have some thoughts on acquiring some 402's (hence his questions about which driver is used). I didn't view it as him reviewing the thread comments and merely repeating that others have suggested the 402.

Yeah my only point was after just glancing at the thread, he seemed to have a sudden switch maximinzing the wood top section horns and drivers he has now, to looking at 402 horns with Klipsch drivers. Just was thinking he may being led down the primrose path to 402's when it is not an option, unless you are going to sell em yours[]

Well I am off to Waffle House, and then over to the Klipsch Factory to make some final adjustments on the Klipsch Tape demo that Jim is going to do in conjunction with his presentation.

Travis

[Coytee]

Just was thinking he may being led down the primrose path to 402's when it is not an option,

I'm not understanding the comment... he's merely a credit card number away from acquiring a pair if indeed he wanted to. I need to read the thread again as it seems I'm missing something else.

[jacksonbart]

Who is Tony Ham?

[Travis In Austin]

Just was thinking he may being led down the primrose path to 402's when it is not an option,

I'm not understanding the comment... he's merely a credit card number away from acquiring a pair if indeed he wanted to. I need to read the thread again as it seems I'm missing something else.

No it is me, I was not very clear. He can't just buy 402's, Klipsch won't sell them to him, they don't them like that. You can get them assembled, with drivers, but I think there is only one person who can approve that, and he is not interested in selling them to go with other people's commercial bass bins. That was what I meant that he might be getting led down the primrose path when he tires to buy 402 horns and is told by Klipsch Parts that they don't sell them individually or goes through a dealer and asks for a set and they get stopped that way.

That was all I was trying to say, sorry for the confusion.

Travis

[Coytee]

Gotcha... I wasn't catching the difference of buying just the horn verses the horn/driver.

I guess I'm defaulting to a presumption that everyone knows you can't buy just the horn or just the driver. Clearly, that isn't the case.

[Travis In Austin]

I'm not even sure you can buy the 402 with a Klipsch driver anymore. But I know he can get the whole thing top to bottom pretty easy, but not in parts. They are not in the OEM/DIY parts business.

Travis

[bhendrix]

However the tweeters, while wowing the non audiophile audience, were sorely lacking in filling the room.

Hi Brad,

I guess I'm not surprised at your disappointment with the "home-brew" set up. I took my Klipsch Jubilees to a venue that was 65' wide x 110' long with 25' ceilings and had no problem in filling the room. With one pair of Jubilees with K-402 horns and a pair of KP-682 subs and a live band, the house was cookin'. We had about 175 people in the room.

Ok, so now I will start thinking about alternative tweeter setups. BEC said the faital LTH142 horn with a HF140 compression driver could be a consideration.

OK, now here I am a bit surprised. I'm concerned that you will continue to spend money chasing the true Jubilee and will continue to fall short. From your description of drop-outs, shallow crossover slopes, mis-matched hf horns, etc., I'm guessing that you are not yet close to the real Jubilee.

There is really only one solution to your quest. Call 1-800-KLIPSCH, ask for Roy Delgado, and order a set of Klipschorn Jubilees. While mixing and matching different parts may be entertaining for some folks, the end result will not perform like the Jubilee.

Someone once said that the sting of poor quality is remembered far longer than the thrill of a low price.

[Deang]

Big horns like the 402 will obviously do a much better job of filling larger rooms with sound (since that is what they are primarily designed for). However, it is my opinion that the kind of rooms most have don't really need it. After all, some are using the diminutive 510 and are perfectly happy.

Just because the set-up fell flat as a PA rig in a large venue doesn't mean it can't be optimized to sound really good in the home. I see what Bob is doing, he's a smart guy. Let's not forget that Roy's Jubilee and PWK's Jubilee are not the same beast. I'm pretty sure that Tony and Bob have a very good and close approximation of PWK's original design, which used a 1/4" exit driver (which has better HF extension) and a much smaller horn. As for the crossover, the prototype Jubilee sitting in Valerie Klipschs' den had a very simple filter. Some of us were invited over to meet her (during a Pilgrimage) and when we saw the Jubilee sitting there, asked if we could fire it up. She was all for it, but when we tried, the compression driver kept shorting out. I personally pulled the network, and trust me when I say this - it was a classic PWK minimalist design.

Two things can sound different from one another, and yet both can deliver equally pleasing results.

The 402/69 combo was $2K when I did it. I figured out in short order that the driver was just a rebranded P. Audio BMD750, which can be had for peanuts. I liked the sound at first, but over time it began to wear on my ears - no fault of the driver I suppose, I just developed a strong aversion to titanium. As for the 402, it's a great horn, but I don't like the way it's made - it just looks cheap. It's all good as long as you don't think of one as costing almost a thousand dollars. I just think the top section is overpriced. An almost as big and much nicer built horn by DDS can be had for a little over $300. I maintain that room acoustics will swamp most of the differences that some are squabbling about.

[Deang]

Seems I lose my formatting when using my Samsung Galaxy Tab - sorry.

[mikebse2a3]

As for the 402, it's a great horn, but I don't like the way it's made - it just looks cheap. It's all good as long as you don't think of one as costing almost a thousand dollars. I just think the top section is overpriced. An almost as big and much nicer built horn by DDS can be had for a little over $300.

From my point of view I have no problem with the build or price of the K402 Dean. There is research/engineering/design/testing cost among many other things that have to be factored into every product sold.

My first priority is quality of performance and this is were the K402's engineering/acoustical quality is at the cutting edge of what is available today. The scientific research necessary to truely advance and push the understanding of how to develope better horns can't be cheap. Some companys simply copy(sometimes rather poorly) others efforts and thus have only manufacturing cost involved in there products and then there are companys like Klipsch that actually do research and maintain the facilities and personel to do advance research and if you want them to keep being around then they must recoup there cost and make a profit on there products/services.

I can't say I agree with most of your other comments either based on my experiences but thats OK.

mike tn

[PrestonTom]

.....

...... An almost as big and much nicer built horn by DDS can be had for a little over $300. I maintain that room acoustics will swamp most of the differences that some are squabbling about.

Dean (or anyone else who is familiar), I have seen data sheets on the DDS horns the CFD 2-90 & CFD 2-60 models (X and the big XL version at 90 x 40 and 60 x 40 deg dispersion with 2 inch throats). They look intriguing and seem affordable.

I am curious about how they actually sound. Have you had a chance to get a good listen to them and what are your thoughts?

My project is a double woofer bass bin (push-pull configuration in a vented cabinet) and I would need to cross at about 500-600 Hz to a CD horn in a two way set up (JBL drivers: 2445/6). This is pretty demanding on the horn and I am curious whether these would hold up. My current placeholder is to use an Electrovoice HP640 horn. If this is too off-topic then you might want to reply in a new thread.

Thanks,

-Tom

[Deang]

Hi Mike - I only see one comment in my post that one might disagree with, where I said that two different approaches could produce equally pleasing results. This of course assumes that both approaches are correctly implemented. Everything else I said was completely factual, so I don't know what there is to disagree with.

I don't agree with your comment regarding cost. I'm quite sure Klipsch has recouped the R&D cost a hundred fold or more by now - considering how many screens they are sitting behind across the country and even the world.

Aesthetically speaking, my 402s looked like they were dragged through the Arkansas woods when I got them - Colter's look the same way. The build on my bass bins looked "hurried" - I think only half of the braces were set straight, and on one, the nails split the wood ("missed it by that much"). I asked for an exchange and Roy, being the class act that he is - obliged. The 2nd pair were marginally better - they still managed to use screws too long for the barrier strips, and split the plywood underneath on both cabinets (I guess finding the right screw or drilling a pilot hole takes too long). This of course made me question the rest of the build. I mean, if what you see falls short, what about what you can't see? Plainly put - I'm all but pretty sure everyone else didn't get the level of quality that you and Richard did (first two built for home use). I tried to get an exchange on the 402s, but no go - the response was basically that it goes with the territory when dealing with commercial stuff. So, I'm glad you're satisfied, but keep in mind that most of us didn't get builds and top sections inspected and autographed by everyone at the plant. :-) I do find it interesting that when I see the commercial horns offered by others, they don't exhibit the wham bam and rather fragile look of the 402 and 510.

I'm all for "the fully engineered Klipsch solution", but I think you're off the mark if you think something that isn't can't sound as good or even better.

[Deang]

Hi Tom, no, I haven't heard them, but have read comments by those that have. As you know, this all gets very complicated very quickly, as there are many variables to take into consideration. However, the polars on the CFD 2-90 look excellent, and with a quality driver, should no doubt sound very good. Those horns would definitely be on my short list if I were involved with something of this nature again.

[PrestonTom]

Hi Tom, no, I haven't heard them, but have read comments by those that have. As you know, this all gets very complicated very quickly, as there are many variables to take into consideration. However, the polars on the CFD 2-90 look excellent, and with a quality driver, should no doubt sound very good. Those horns would definitely be on my short list if I were involved with something of this nature again.

Dean, I hope you will be involved with something of this nature again, and in the near future!

[mikebse2a3]

Tom be carefull of these DSS horns especially if 2-way high performance is your goal at some point. Good polars are very important but it really matters how they have been acheived.

mike tn