How do you tame the "s" harshness on la scala or khorn? Or is it a problem for you?

[Islander]

Some La Scala owners have tried reducing the mid horn output by changing the tap on one of the transformers. Adding a layer or two of grille cloth over the mid horn is also worth a try.

Or you could just go with a 510 or 402 horn and K-69 driver and move up to a different level of great sound. [6][]

[Marvel]

Some La Scala owners have tried reducing the mid horn output by changing the tap on one of the transformers.

I would be one of those, but then I don't have the original crossovers or tweeters.

I felt the mids were just a little too forward, so I dropped back a little bit. Not so much to make them like Advents... [6]

Much, much smoother sound, and not seems a lot better from bottom to top. Makes the bass seem better as well. The best part is the price.

Bruce

[jtnfoley]

No sibilance on my Speakerlab-Ks, but they've been pretty substantially upgraded: ST350B 'babycheeks' tweeters and modded A4500 networks, the mods to flatten the hotspot on the ST350Bs around 9k (IIRC.) The mod is an added R/C/H segment straight out of the documentation from the tweets.

These are fronted by NAD114 and PE2200, with vinyl, CD, and HTPC (FLAC through an Asus Xonar card.)

No harshness or fatigue in any way, altho a friend with a more sophisticated ear is convincend he hears "something" amiss, and we're working on finding whatever 'it' is. []

[tromprof]

I have not noticed this on either my k-horns or La Scalas. Some SS amps can make them accentuate highs, but this is not a problem with my 1970s vintage Yamaha stuff. I also tried a SS preamp with my tube amp and was not happy with the results, but it has been a while and I can't remember exactly what it was I didn't like. If I were you I would try a different preamp, and maybe the amp as well, and see if that changes anything before I modded the speakers.

[twu]

I'm using lossless FLAC feeding a Logitech Transporter.

Doesnt sound like its the equipment!

J

I agree.

You are saying that it is only on certain songs, so some songs sound fine? Right! Then it is the source.

Although, refreshing the "Caps" or replacing the networks will still make a noticeable improvement in the sound quality.

La Scalas are very revealing, so as the saying goes, garbage in, garbage out. Quality in, Quality out!

Dennie

You are correct that this only happens with certain recordings. The same argument can be made that the same recordings does have this problem on other speakers. IMO, I think it's a combination of the recording and the revealing nature of La Scalas.

[twu]

I have not noticed this on either my k-horns or La Scalas. Some SS amps can make them accentuate highs, but this is not a problem with my 1970s vintage Yamaha stuff. I also tried a SS preamp with my tube amp and was not happy with the results, but it has been a while and I can't remember exactly what it was I didn't like. If I were you I would try a different preamp, and maybe the amp as well, and see if that changes anything before I modded the speakers.

tromprof, thanks for the suggestios. I've tried about 4 different SS preamps and the NAD 1700 is best/warmest preamp on my system.

Did you try the recordings I mentioned having this issue or just your general impression? "Clocks" from Coldplay and "Human Nuture" by Michael Jackson. I'm curious whether you can hear what I'm hearing with same recordings. Thanks.

[twu]

Some La Scala owners have tried reducing the mid horn output by changing the tap on one of the transformers.

I would be one of those, but then I don't have the original crossovers or tweeters.

I felt the mids were just a little too forward, so I dropped back a little bit. Not so much to make them like Advents...

Much, much smoother sound, and not seems a lot better from bottom to top. Makes the bass seem better as well. The best part is the price.

Bruce

Don't know much about network mods but do you know if this is possible using stock AA or Bob's crossovers using the transformers that allows you to change the tap? As far as I know, you can only change the tap on Al's networks.

[Marvel]

Don't know much about network mods but do you know if this is possible using stock AA or Bob's crossovers using the transformers that allows you to change the tap?

Sure you can.

A long list of crossover schematics are here:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/130178.aspx

Bruce

[garyrc]

I have to wonder, is it the recording and not the speakers/gear?

How do other recordings sound?

I listen to classical, jazz, and run movies and haven't had a harsh "S" (sibilance?) with my Klipschorns...... BUT we had TV sound coming through them for a while, and one out of about 20 TV shows had the "s" problem. We laid it to the recordings/broadcasts. If there is sibilance on the recording, you would expect (and even want?) it to be reproduced by the speakers. It is perfectly possible for vocals to be bright (if they were recorded that way), and not be sibilant. THe same is true of dialog. The DVD of the British TV show called something like "Coupling" has the brightest, crispest dialog recording I have ever heard, yet it is not harsh, and there is no "ssss" problem.

[tromprof]

I have not noticed this on either my k-horns or La Scalas. Some SS amps can make them accentuate highs, but this is not a problem with my 1970s vintage Yamaha stuff. I also tried a SS preamp with my tube amp and was not happy with the results, but it has been a while and I can't remember exactly what it was I didn't like. If I were you I would try a different preamp, and maybe the amp as well, and see if that changes anything before I modded the speakers.

tromprof, thanks for the suggestios. I've tried about 4 different SS preamps and the NAD 1700 is best/warmest preamp on my system.

Did you try the recordings I mentioned having this issue or just your general impression? "Clocks" from Coldplay and "Human Nuture" by Michael Jackson. I'm curious whether you can hear what I'm hearing with same recordings. Thanks.

I don't own those recordings, I will listen from you-tube and listen for any extra SSssssing.[] The S syllable can really cut through, I once heard a choral conductor tell the chorus to "get off there ss-es!"

[gnatnoop]

the DAC on the logitech unit may be your weak link. i found much improvement when i ran the output from logitech to an outboard DAC (which bypassed the internal DAC).

[oldtimer]

From what I have heard of the two speakers in question there is nothing to tame. Any issues will probably be from upstream.

[DrWho]

After having a chance to hear for myself all of the gear/xover/etc modifications being suggested, I would humbly suggest that your best solution would be a different pair of speakers....them old exponential horns are engineered very well, but can't touch any of the modern horn designs in regards to clarity, harshness, openness, fatigue, etc...

If changing speakers is out of the question, then I would recommend tackling the xovers...maybe even looking for a way to build in some custom EQ

[sunburnwilly]

Easy , crank the volume and push through it . At 120db's you probably won't notice .

[killer clown]

Maybe an L-pad.

[Chris A]

....them old exponential horns are engineered very well, but can't touch any of the modern horn designs in regards to clarity, harshness, openness, fatigue, etc...

I would recommend one other alternative to consider: using an active digital crossover (a low-cost unit is the Behringer DCX2496, but there are other units available from ElectroVoice [DC-One], dBX [Driverack], etc.) and tri-amp your La Scalas. The initial settings for the crossover--parametric EQ filters, crossover filter type/frequencies, relative channel gain, and driver delays--can be found here for the Belle Klipsch (only the tweeter delay needs to be increased slightly for the La Scala):

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/143349/1465822.aspx

EDIT: The Heritage series crossovers (including the La Scalas) do not electrically cross over the midrange driver to the tweeter band, instead they rely on the midrange driver/horn to roll off. I believe that the La Scala midrange horn/driver really doesn't sound very good much above 4.5 KHz, which is a good reason to use a steep-slope filter like the ones found in digital active crossovers and in Al K's steep-slope passive crossovers.

Additionally, the slope on Klipsch Heritage crossovers is so gradual that the K77 tweeter is putting out a significant amount of energy below 4 KHz, which is something that you probably don't want to listen to. Using the steep slope crossover filters mentioned above will avoid that issue. I don't believe in using nonlinear tube amplifiers to correct for speaker crossover problems. It's much cheaper and more effective to correct the problem at its source - in the crossover.

The bottom line: I believe that Klipsch Heritage crossovers are designed more from the standpoint of low unit cost and performance stability over time (component aging issues are significant on passive crossovers--but not on active digital crossovers). You can use steep slope passive crossover filters to correct for some of the sibilance issues, but I find that the advantages to using active digital crossovers with tri-amping are much greater than continuing to use passive crossover networks.

I initially didn't believe that tri-amping and time-correcting the Belle would make that much difference--it did for me, however. No harshness or sibilance issues now, plus many more improvements.

I'm using a Belle between two Jubilees and the sound from the Belle integrates with them now that the time delays, crossover filter between the midrange and tweeter, and relative driver gains have been dialed in.

Here is why active crossovers and, in this case--tri-amping--is so effective:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/135423/1371876.aspx

Chris

[garyrc]

What is the the frequency band in which "s" harshness (sibilance) occurs?

How about regular harshness that is not sibilant?

To my ears, sibilance seems to occur in the tweeter range of a LaScala or a Klipschorn. Whenever I have heard it when I've taken the effort to walk over and put my ear in front of the Klipschorns, the "ssss" sibilance has come through the tweeters, not the midrange, so I doubt if putting an extra layer of fabric over the mid horn mouth would do much good, and I wouldn't want to put an extra layer over the tweeters, because we want that cymbal shimmmer, and all the other overtones! My tweeters crossover @ 4.5K, i,e., AK-4 version of the Klipschorn. As I said in an earlier post, I have not heard sibilance from a CD, SACD, DVD or Blu-ray, any more often, and not any more annoying than in live, unamplified performances. TV sound piped through Khorns will transmit it more often.

In live music, sibilance is often apparent (but O.K.) in large choirs, and since each singer's sibilance is slightly offset from the average in time, it can be kind of cool (I know they try to minimize it). As to pop, rock, etc. if you put you ear as close to someone's mouth as most microphones are placed, you will hear sibilance, more from some singers than others.

Broader band harshness that is not sibilance is another matter. If I had to pick a type of music or label(s) with which it shows up most often (still rarely), it might be the sound of massed strings in an orchestra (difficult to record, according to Leo deGar Kukala [sp], re: Mostly Mozart), especially on Chandos or Virgin CDs. Some times massed strings sound just fine, and sometimes they can be a tad harsh in live performances.

With both harshness and sibilance, I suspect distortion from somewhere, including WAY upstream. Microphones can distort, and I don't know if the distortion slowly rises to the level you get with microphone diaphram crashing, or whether it is a sudden jump in distortion, from tolerable to intolerable. For those of us who have a number of old recordings, studio electronics may be a source of problems. In the old days ('70s) it was commonplace for microphone preamps (usually in the board) to overload. In our tour of S.F. Bay Area studios in 1974, many of the engineers went out of their way to cite this problem, thinking, I guess, that it was something that beginning engineers ought to be told. Someone like Dr. Who could tell us whether this still goes on. The mixers also complained about the "hard" sound of solid state, compared to their old tube equipment. Wally Heider used tube equipment (McIntosh) at least for control room monitoring. Needless to say, our own home electronics may be a problem.

All of that being said, La Scalas have always seemed more prone to harshness than Klipschorns (I haven't heard the LS II). Since they use the same drivers, mid horns, and tweeters, it may be a psychoacoustical effect of balance -- does the increased bass of the Khorns below about 60Hz tend to make any harshness less apparent? Would putting a sub with a La Scala help hide any harshness? I'm not saying the harshness originates in the La Scala -- it may just reveal it, or some other speakers may tend to mask it.

[Quiet_Hollow]

twu,

I've got the CD of that album. Don't have the "S" harshness problem, but Chris Martin definitely has a lisp that puts out more air on his S's, which is audible even in his interviews. Don't have the MJ song otherwise I'd have checked that out too. I've got AL-3's being powered by an Equibit amp firing into a plush room.

[DrWho]

....them old exponential horns are engineered very well, but can't touch any of the modern horn designs in regards to clarity, harshness, openness, fatigue, etc...

I would recommend one other alternative to consider: using an active digital crossover (a low-cost unit is the Behringer DCX2496, but there are other units available from ElectroVoice [DC-One], dBX [Driverack], etc.) and tri-amp your La Scalas. The initial settings for the crossover--parametric EQ filters, crossover filter type/frequencies, relative channel gain, and driver delays--can be found here for the Belle Klipsch (only the tweeter delay needs to be increased slightly for the La Scala):

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/143349/1465822.aspx

EDIT: The Heritage series crossovers (including the La Scalas) do not electrically cross over the midrange driver to the tweeter band, instead they rely on the midrange driver/horn to roll off. I believe that the La Scala midrange horn/driver really doesn't sound very good much above 4.5 KHz, which is a good reason to use a steep-slope filter like the ones found in digital active crossovers and in Al K's steep-slope passive crossovers.

Additionally, the slope on Klipsch Heritage crossovers is so gradual that the K77 tweeter is putting out a significant amount of energy below 4 KHz, which is something that you probably don't want to listen to. Using the steep slope crossover filters mentioned above will avoid that issue. I don't believe in using nonlinear tube amplifiers to correct for speaker crossover problems. It's much cheaper and more effective to correct the problem at its source - in the crossover.

The bottom line: I believe that Klipsch Heritage crossovers are designed more from the standpoint of low unit cost and performance stability over time (component aging issues are significant on passive crossovers--but not on active digital crossovers). You can use steep slope passive crossover filters to correct for some of the sibilance issues, but I find that the advantages to using active digital crossovers with tri-amping are much greater than continuing to use passive crossover networks.

I initially didn't believe that tri-amping and time-correcting the Belle would make that much difference--it did for me, however. No harshness or sibilance issues now, plus many more improvements.

I'm using a Belle between two Jubilees and the sound from the Belle integrates with them now that the time delays, crossover filter between the midrange and tweeter, and relative driver gains have been dialed in.

Here is why active crossovers and, in this case--tri-amping--is so effective:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/135423/1371876.aspx

Chris

Haha, I was trying to be more subtle, but ya...going active would provide so much more control over the sound. I think we are far too quick to blame the source material as I've discovered a lot of music that sounds bad on a khorn or lascala, but sounds awesome on something like a Jubilee or anything with a modern HF horn...or even an old horn with a really well engineered xover/EQ solution...

[garyrc]

The Heritage series crossovers (including the La Scalas) do not electrically cross over the midrange driver to the tweeter band, instead they rely on the midrange driver/horn to roll off. I believe that the La Scala midrange horn/driver really doesn't sound very good much above 4.5 KHz, which is a good reason to use a steep-slope filter like the ones found in digital active crossovers and in Al K's steep-slope passive crossovers.

I guess Klipsch agrees with you in part, because, according to them, the newer upgrades for the Klipschorn, like the AK-4 and AK-5, do electrically cross over the midrange to the tweeter, muting the unwanted top of the midrange driver's response. They also roll off the K-77F tweeter radically below 4.5K (I think@ 36 dB/otave). I hope the newest La Scalas, like the La Scala II, do this also. I think my AK-4s sound a little better than my old AAs, but not necessarily on every single CD. Maybe the improvement has to do with those two changes.

I would go active if I could afford the additional amplification.