John Warren Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 JAMES,, IF YOU WANT TO PUT A BETTER EDGE ON A BLADE,,,CRYO IS NOT THE ANSWERE,,HEAT TREATING AND QUENCHING IN OIL PLUS LAYER FOLDING LIKE THE JAPANESE HAVE BEEN DOING FOR CENTURIES IS THE SAMORI TRADITION.. YOU DONT DIP YOUR WIKKI IN CRYO FOR BETTER PERFORMANCE.. Maron- There are a few steel alloys that require sub-zero cool (SZC) after initial quench from Austenizing temp. The Martenstic finish temp is below room temperature and thus a fully harden structure is not developed unless quenched below RT. After SZC, the alloy is then re-heated to some intermediate temperature and tempered (typically HRc 38-42), The tempering step produces some toughness in the alloy. The fully harden structure produced after SZC would crack otherwise. An example of an allioy that requires SZC after oil-quench is AM355. It is a high strength, corrosion resistant steel used in some engine rotor applications (shafting mostly). It belongs to a family of steels called Controlled Transformation Steels. Attached is a paper I wrote on AM355 a few years ago. jw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 YOU DONT DIP YOUR WIKKI IN CRYO FOR BETTER PERFORMANCE.. Well, beyond a certain age, the wikki will be considerably more rigid if frozen solid than could ever be achieved at normal temps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Besides tempering steel, particularly carbon steel, cryo treating is useful for stress reduction in most metals. This is useful if the metal is used as a structural member. Cryo treating has no benefit for audio unless you are trying to built a lightweight stand for heavy components. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 It is a high strength, corrosion resistant steel used in some engine rotor applications (shafting mostly). It belongs to a family of steels called Controlled Transformation Steels. All very true, for metallurgical applications requiring great toughness. I am skeptical about any claims for vacuum tube innards, however. In fact, I am concerned about what might happen to some of those delicate internal parts when brought to such a low temperature -- will they crack due to different coefficients of thermal expansion (contraction, in this case) than the parts to which they are attached? Will they shatter with the slightest jostling? Will the seal around the pins be compromised? Any number of ill effects come to mind, and frankly I just don't know whether they are genuine concerns or much ado about nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 WARREN,,,I,m AWARE OF ENGINE ROTER APPLICATIONS AND CONTROLLED TRANSFORMATION STEELS,,,AFTER BEING IN THE ARICRAFT BUSINESS FOE 30 YRS.... BUT THE OBSESSIVE NIGGLING IN TUBE AUDIO FIELD SHOULD BE APPROACHED WITH CAUTION,,,SCAMMERS PRY ON THE HOBBY,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 SCAMMERS PRY ON THE HOBBY,, A fool and his money is soon parted..... but if you really want to part with some money try the Black Body Less Loss http://www.lessloss.com/page.html?id=73 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 It is a high strength, corrosion resistant steel used in some engine rotor applications (shafting mostly). It belongs to a family of steels called Controlled Transformation Steels. All very true, for metallurgical applications requiring great toughness. I am skeptical about any claims for vacuum tube innards, however. In fact, I am concerned about what might happen to some of those delicate internal parts when brought to such a low temperature -- will they crack due to different coefficients of thermal expansion (contraction, in this case) than the parts to which they are attached? Will they shatter with the slightest jostling? Will the seal around the pins be compromised? Any number of ill effects come to mind, and frankly I just don't know whether they are genuine concerns or much ado about nothing. As I said i have a few cryo treated tubes that came with a phono amp. And as I said It is hard for me to say that there is any difference as I dont have exact non cryo tubes to compare them to. There seems to be a lot yelling going on here and I cannot understand why. I dont see anyone actively promoting cryogenics for audio gear! Of all the smoke and mirrors in this hobby quite honestly it seems to me that cryogenetics could have an effect on tubes etc. I mean it if effects the structural strength of metal it could certainly effect the wires in some way. But again im not promoting it just open to the discussion! Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Warren Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 SCAMMERS PREY ON THE HOBBY,, Who cares? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 CORRECT,,WHO CARES,,, AT THE CES,,, HALF SHOULD BE IN JAIL...THE OTHER HALF SHOULD BE FLOGGED AND LEFT BLEEDING IN THE SUN.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I think the scammers should all undergo cryo treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I think the scammers should all undergo cryo treatment. You did it!!! A cryo treatment I can agree with [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 I don't know if I would consider the 2 vendors scammers one of them would only want 5 dollars extra for a pair of tubes, ya $1.00 scam or a $1,000,000 scam is still a scam, but I would think you would make it worth your wild. The other company is a company I am sure lots from this site have purchased tubes in the past, maybe they were scammed. I guess you guys are probably talking more along the lines of cryo treating all of your audio gear for 100s or even 1000s. Which I think the biggest scam of all times is the fact that there are only 8 hot dog buns in a pack when there are 10 hot dogs in a package.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Cryo treatment of stereo gear is for the birds, and fools with too much money and not enough sense. I'm sorry, Moray, I'm not trying to brand you, who buys into this, but stereo gear, and especially metal alloys used in tubes, do not need either the relaxation ductility nor the hardening that cryo would provide. Now, if I were to fall out of a New York penthouse and only had a quad of patch cords to grab and dangle from, I would like for them to be cryo'ed, but that is about the only advantage that is measurable. Cryo does present some great value added attributes to high stress metal usages, but they don't translate well to the stereo realm other than through the pocketbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Now, if I were to fall out of a New York penthouse and only had a quad of patch cords to grab and dangle from, I would like for them to be cryo'ed, but that is about the only advantage that is measurable. I'd suggest (in Dave's scenario) the cords have those PIA locking RCAs, and NOT be plugged into a T-amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Have you compared for yourself? Years ago we treated a series od select DAC's for Analog Devices, they sent out matching identical sets of treated and non treated units to all their high end digital design customers. Guess which DAC's got the interest? The DAC's were not identified as treated nothing was said only that these were two slightly different versions of rhe same DAC and that they were looking for feedback. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Have you compared for yourself? Years ago we treated a series od select DAC's for Analog Devices, they sent out matching identical sets of treated and non treated units to all their high end digital design customers. Guess which DAC's got the interest? The DAC's were not identified as treated nothing was said only that these were two slightly different versions of rhe same DAC and that they were looking for feedback. Best regards Moray James. Well, I say they should have published their data and seen if others could replicate their results, at least if they are making broad claims about performance. Even if they're on to something, many won't believe it without seeing some agreed upon facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Not only have I compared, but I have compared with tubes purchased, and ones I also personally cryo'ed. If I were to spend money on tubes at the level that many cryo'ed tubes are commonly sold, I would purchase a set of matched, warranteed tubes from a reputable vendor before I would drop the same money on cryo'ed tubes.I have even listened on multiple tube amps hoping to hear a difference, but to no avail. There are things that make an audible difference, but cryo tubes are not in that group at my house on my gear with my speakers. If it doesn't make a difference when free, how much difference will it make when it cost hundreds of dollars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 ONCE A TUBE IS HEATED,,CRYO TREATMENT GOES OUT THE WINDOW,,,,CLEANING THE PINS ON THE TUBE MAKES BETTER SENSE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Fair enough Dave, Gad you gave it a try. I guess tat we just have to agree to disagree. I have at times had every component in the chain treated. I appreciate the discussion. Best regards Moray James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Not only have I compared, but I have compared with tubes purchased, and ones I also personally cryo'ed. If I were to spend money on tubes at the level that many cryo'ed tubes are commonly sold, I would purchase a set of matched, warranteed tubes from a reputable vendor before I would drop the same money on cryo'ed tubes.I have even listened on multiple tube amps hoping to hear a difference, but to no avail. There are things that make an audible difference, but cryo tubes are not in that group at my house on my gear with my speakers. If it doesn't make a difference when free, how much difference will it make when it cost hundreds of dollars? Moray, or is it James? You've done wonderful things since coming here, and helped out numerous posters with solid advice when others were couldn't be bothered. I have a lot of respect of your obvious depth of knowledge of our hobby. I, for one, certainly value many or your opinions. But, (sorry Dude, you know I had to say but ) one of mine, and this forums favorite dogs has barked, and he seldom barks up the wrong tree. Sheltie Dave is one of our most nuanced and accurate posters. If he says cyro is crap, then it's crap. As far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure to many time observers of this place, it's the equivalent of Paul Klipsch talking about horns. Take what he says to the bank. For me, and forever more, to cyro or not, is is one of those rare instances in audio where the issue has just been settled. Resolved. Put to rest, laid down... (unless Sheltie suddenly comes out in favor of high dollar cables, in which case I recant) [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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