30blows Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I just bought a pair of Klipschorns (SN circa #13S258 - which I think means 1978) and brought them home. They sound terrible and it seems likely I need a tighter fit in the corners and may have to change upstream components (or I just blew $2500 and my wife will kill me because they currently sound worse than the 25 year old Energy 22's they are replacing). The obvious defects are: 1. No bass, or practically none. I put my ear up against the enormous woofer boxes on the bottom and they both sound like a sleeping pumpkin. Are they both broken? 2. Mid-range and treble are very bright. Fast and detailed, but obviously (not subtly) too bright. 3. No soundstage. Completely empty center. Just two noises coming from two corners of the room. You cannot point out the location of any instrument except to say left or right. Naturally I am distressed. Upstream components: Pre-amp and amp: Nakamichi CA-5 and PA-5 Turntable: Thorens TD-318 with Audio-Technica AT-OC9 cartridge Room: 1. 14' x 24' with the speakers in corners along a long wall. 2. One speaker pushes well into the corner, but the corner has a kind of wainscoting which comes up about 3', so that above that there is a 2-3" gap between the speaker and the walls. 3. The other speaker is flush on one wall but the other wall has a gap of 4" or so due weird architectural artifacts. Questions: 1. Will getting out my toolbox and building solid tight-fitting corners for both speakers fix the bass? Or is this a problem with the upstream components? Or both? 2. Are the upstream components adequate for these speakers? They may not be given that the mid-range and treble are so bright. If not adequate, what should I replace and with what? 3. Should I have the speakers on a short wall? I would like to believe the terrible sound is all my fault. I certainly hope so. Any advice most welcome. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twistedcrankcammer Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 I just bought a pair of Klipschorns (SN circa #13S258 - which I think means 1978) and brought them home. They sound terrible and it seems likely I need a tighter fit in the corners and may have to change upstream components (or I just blew $2500 and my wife will kill me because they currently sound worse than the 25 year old Energy 22's they are replacing). The obvious defects are: 1. No bass, or practically none. I put my ear up against the enormous woofer boxes on the bottom and they both sound like a sleeping pumpkin. Are they both broken? 2. Mid-range and treble are very bright. Fast and detailed, but obviously (not subtly) too bright. 3. No soundstage. Completely empty center. Just two noises coming from two corners of the room. You cannot point out the location of any instrument except to say left or right. Naturally I am distressed. Upstream components: Pre-amp and amp: Nakamichi CA-5 and PA-5 Turntable: Thorens TD-318 with Audio-Technica AT-OC9 cartridge Room: 1. 14' x 24' with the speakers in corners along a long wall. 2. One speaker pushes well into the corner, but the corner has a kind of wainscoting which comes up about 3', so that above that there is a 2-3" gap between the speaker and the walls. 3. The other speaker is flush on one wall but the other wall has a gap of 4" or so due weird architectural artifacts. Questions: 1. Will getting out my toolbox and building solid tight-fitting corners for both speakers fix the bass? Or is this a problem with the upstream components? Or both? 2. Are the upstream components adequate for these speakers? They may not be given that the mid-range and treble are so bright. If not adequate, what should I replace and with what? 3. Should I have the speakers on a short wall? I would like to believe the terrible sound is all my fault. I certainly hope so. Any advice most welcome. Thanks. Sounds like your woofers are blown. Open up the hatches and check your woofers! Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 30, you are running into multiple problems. The Energy 22s are a great two way, and they actually are quite bass heavy. Jumping into KHorns will not be a little change. In that geometry, I would set the KHorns about 14 to 16' apart - 24 feet is bout 6' past their maximum effective spread distance. Your PA 5 amp will be a superb match, but you will definitely will have a problem with the CA 5 being a very detailed, clear, bright preamp, and as such it will accentuate the most strident of the KHorn characteristics. Without the KHorns snugged into effective corners, you will be losing about 30% to 50% of your bass. Are you in Canada, with the Energys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30blows Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 I am next door to Palm Springs. I will check out the woofers. New to Klipschorn - I assume I remove the panel with the wired connection to the woofer enclosure and look for what exactly? The woofers do make a little noise - if you disconnect the wires you can tell the difference, but they sound like the bass on a $20 Radio Shack boom box. I will also try using a short side of the room (14') and see if this will help create a soundstage (now completely absent). I am happy to work on this situation as these speakers have a great reputation and at least I can tell the midrange and tweeter are detailed and fast - they will be lovely once I get the coloration out. Thanks for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiet_Hollow Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Triple check your electronics too. Start easy. One switch, knob, or wrong connection is all it takes to mess up the signal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Hey 30blows, Congratulations on the K'Horns! [<)] You're going to love them, it make take a little work, but you're going to love them. I have La Scalas and if I had two good corners, I'd have K'horns also. First thing, are they the original crossovers? If so, replacing or updating them will make a big difference in the Bass, but they have to be sealed up to the wall or a false back has to be put on. As you know, they are horn woofers and need the backing to complete the horn. Some people use "pipe insulation" to get a proper seal. Do a search and you'll find more info. I bought new crossovers for my 1979 La Scalas from Bob & Michael Crites. Here is the Link ------> CLICK HERE There are other options, so do a search here and you'll come up with many. Replacing the crossovers was like taking a blanket off of the speakers. The highs and mids cleared up and cleaned up and the bass came to life. Keep us posted and don't hesitate to ask questions. We'll be glad to help in anyway we can. Dennie Oh, I almost forgot....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeFord Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 If you have never heard them sound right, they could be damaged, or modified. With something very different to what you are accustomed to damage may not be obvious until its fixed. 33 year old speakers no telling what may have happened or been done to them. WAF first impression can be a killer. I hide stuff until I am SURE its ready for royal judgement. Huge speaker and not much bass will have VERY low WAF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30blows Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 Congrats premature, but hopefully soon. I removed one of the woofers. Visual inspection shows no damage. With a bass heavy record on the turn table you can barely see the woofer cone vibrate (when it's seated outside of its enclosure on a chair). If you put your ear right next to the woofer, the bass is about balanced with the midrange/treble from above. Is this the expected response? The woofers are marked K-33-E. The fellow I bought them from asserts he was the original owner and never modified them. On audition the bass poor but I figured it was from the cheap amp hooked up to the speakers. Not so. I can't certify the crossovers are original, but I expect they are... Below is a picture. I very much appreciate the willingness of folks on this forum to help out. Uncommonly good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Unless you exaggerating the problems, I would not worry about the electronics. I would start with the fundamentals first. Check the wiring to see if anything is wired in the wrong polarity and everything is wired correctly, Get the cabinets snug into the corners and use pipe foam if necessary (search the threads for this). Search the threads for a wiring diagram of the crossovers (yours are probably the type AA) and see if the the proper tap on the autoformer is being used (someone may have "improved" things). You are using yours along the long wall and you may need a center channel to get a good center image. Try the short wall if you can and see how it is. At some point you may need to refresh the caps. This does not require spending lots of money. The improvement will be audible but not overly dramatic IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 That looks just like my original 1979 type AA's... Dennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 If I remember correctly, I paid $300 shipped for new Type A/AA Convertible, from Bob & Michael Crites.... But Tom makes a very good point, the basics have to be met first. They really need to be sealed into the corner to get the best sound. Dennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennie Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Congrats premature, but hopefully soon. I very much appreciate the willingness of folks on this forum to help out. Uncommonly good. You'll get there! Don't worry, there is a lot of knowledge here and we want you to enjoy your system as much as we enjoy ours. Uncommonly Good is right! From my experience, when you get Klipsch Speakers, you join the family. I've been treated like family here since day one. We all have something in common, we have and/or Love Klipsch Speakers, which is different from other forums. We're glad you're here! Dennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30blows Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 Fair enough - At least the woofers are wired properly. I will get one speaker into a tight fit in some corner of the house and see if that fixes the bass. Hope so. And, no, I am not exaggerating - that would be a huge waste of time for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runninshine Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Fair enough - At least the woofers are wired properly. I will get one speaker into a tight fit in some corner of the house and see if that fixes the bass. Hope so. And, no, I am not exaggerating - that would be a huge waste of time for all. Don't forget the pipe foam on the back corners that meet the wall. It really helped mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 One of the easiest things you can do it to loosen up the connections on the barrier/terminal strip and tighten them back down. Even a connection that looks good can have oxidation and make a poor connection. Welcome! Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soeren Basboell Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 First, I would say do not use money on it before you have found the problem. My khorns are from 1975 and I have not made any modifications on them so far and they sound very, very well. Like another person on the forum you have a serious problem so faultfinding is the solution. A minor problem I had 25 yrs. ago was no sound from a tweeter; I quite simply looked at the crossover network, loosened and cleaned all the spade connections and tightened them again, one after one. Problem solved. So that is a good thing to do, specially if you got them second hand (I bought mine as new). Remark that most of these low-tech errors will show up in some kind of assymmetry. If I understand you right, then you have: left and right, no middle and no bass; that is the perfect description of a reversed polarity. Try to change the polarity of one of the speakers, and see what happens. I have have heard of one case, where the polarity was wrong from the factory. The bass from khorns and Jubilees is different from the bass from nearly all other speakers, I will describe it as massless as there is almost no cinetic energy stored in the moving mass of the speaker. When the signal stops, the sound stops. This is opposite to what is going on in a 'normal' direct radiator. Once you have made them work properly, then think about sealing in good corners, crossover updates and so on, but for the moment your problems are of a much more basic nature, and they should be solved first. Good luck, Søren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I was working at Kulusuk for about 10 years working on the Dewline. I would love to wave the Hand of God to relocate Kulusuk to Ohio. What do you use for electricity? JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.H.E. Droid Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 No bass, hole in the middle and bad soundstage are classic results of the speaker phases being reversed. You can disconnect each driver from the barrier strip and check them for continuity. Get a volt-ohm meter (Harbor Freight has a very good one for only $20) and check the resistance reading across each driver. If the voice coils on your woofers are blown, they will read a very high value of resistance (should max out the meter). Typically, voice coils will read a few ohms less than their rated impedance, so an 8-ohm rated driver should read around 5 or 6 ohms with an ohm meter. Nothing in the Khorn should be rated higher than 16 ohm, so even if you don't know the rated impedance of each drivers on the model, you can check for continuity. I've also had the experience of bass drivers being overheated, which can cause the formers that support the voice coils to warp and actually become "stuck" in the voice coil gap. They still read a normal amount of resistance but could only move a fraction of their normal distance so the driver could produce some sound, but very little. You can check for this problem by very gently pushing on the dust cap in the center of the driver. Put finger and thumb on opposite sides of the dust cap in the groove where the cap hits the cone, and try to press evenly on both sides. You should be able to move the cone a fair distance (depends on the driver) with no scraping, or sticking. Good luck. I'm having problems getting my used khorns to work properly too, and I've gotten some good troubleshooting suggestions here. (Along with some rediculous "church of audiophile" advice such as running out to buy a $3000 tube amplifier or the $2000 speakers won't sound good.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 ...... (Along with some rediculous "church of audiophile" advice such as running out to buy a $3000 tube amplifier or the $2000 speakers won't sound good.) I would advise you stay way from these comments at the moment.... Check your PM's.... [:#] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmsummer Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 One of the easiest things you can do it to loosen up the connections on the barrier/terminal strip and tighten them back down. Even a connection that looks good can have oxidation and make a poor connection. Welcome! Bruce I want to second this. Moving older K-Horns can loosen the terminal block connectors (and the speakers connectors). Make sure they are all clean and tight! Being out of phase will also kill the bass. The crossovers could stand to be refreshed. The kit to do so is less than $160, and is easy. But that's PROBABLY not your immediate problem (unless you have a broken lead). Trace every wire and you'll find the simple problem. I had to do that with mine (1978 models), so I feel your pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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