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t-man

Denon speaker levels set to -12????

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OK, I ran Audyssey twice now with my KLF 30s (I have a Denon 2310), and it bottoms out my level setting at -12 for both right and left main. The mic positions are approximately 12' away equal distant in a 24x18 room. The sub came out a notch higher at -11.5. Center (C7) at -7 and the rears (KG1) at -4.

My question is if a speaker is too efficient to play at whatever reference level the AVR is attempting to set the volume/output to without bottoming out the levels, does it simply stop attenuating, or does it then lower the reference level a bit so the remaining speakers are still in balance (lower the level from the original reference point)? I guess I'm a little concerned (perhaps for nothing??) that my levels are bottomed out. I guess that means I have a lot of headroom left?

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OK, I ran Audyssey twice now with my KLF 30s (I have a Denon 2310), and it bottoms out my level setting at -12 for both right and left main. The mic positions are approximately 12' away equal distant in a 24x18 room. The sub came out a notch higher at -11.5. Center (C7) at -7 and the rears (KG1) at -4.

My question is if a speaker is too efficient to play at whatever reference level the AVR is attempting to set the volume/output to without bottoming out the levels, does it simply stop attenuating, or does it then lower the reference level a bit so the remaining speakers are still in balance (lower the level from the original reference point)? I guess I'm a little concerned (perhaps for nothing??) that my levels are bottomed out. I guess that means I have a lot of headroom left?

You have bottomed out your KLFs due to efficiency and have "lost" the ability for Audyssey to "balance" the speakers to a reference level. You could get an SPL meter and do it manually or do it by ear with the system turned down to say -5 of reference. Basically, you'll need to set your own reference level at some arbitrary number of say -5, then turn all the speakers up 5 dbs. Under that scenerio the rears would be at +1, the center at -2, the sub at -6.5, and then the fronts will be somewhere below -7. Once you get that in order, then you can listen at whatever number makes you happy, probably around -15.

I'm not sure if anyone else has other "fixes" for this. My RF-82s are "only" set to -9 per Audyssey.

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i just do everything by ear and what sounds right. My l/r are always at 0db and i have upped my rears and center channel. Room correction software isnt always perfect.

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On my present setup the Denon ends up at -15 for about 98 dbm average SPL.

JJK

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Your results don't sound normal...I would:

1) lower the volume to the sub and run it again.

2) Make sure your mic is pointing up and not at the speaker during setup and use a tripod

3 ) Here is the Audyssey set up protocol: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14456895#post14456895

4) If you still can't get it to work try posting your situation here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795421&page=1446

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Yes, I followed protocol. Of course, I did also use a tripod and had the mic pointing up in all 6 locations around my sofa at ear position. The only way to turn my sub down is with the receiver or the external power amp (passive sub), which does have level controls, and I have already turned it down a bit for this reason. I'm afraid to loose needed headroom by cutting the output with the amp level controls too much, though.

Last night, I used my Radio Shack SPL meter to check all the levels, and they were "close". I fine dialed them in, and the test tones on the receiver were at about 72/73 DB for the mains in the -12 position. After equalizing all the other channels via the manual SPL meter method, I ended up with -7 for the center, -10 for the sub, and -1/-3ish on the rears. I think I'm good to go, and it sounds good.

The KLF-30s and my SVS Sub are very efficient, indeed.

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... I guess that means I have a lot of headroom left?

In theory but: Your mains are 3 dB more sensitive than your center and if you sit equidistant from them 6 dB sounds slightly much and -12 is the limit on any channel (at least on my Denon) and that is usually a sign that something is amiss. Then again if you got it dialed in the way you want who cares what I think.

If you aren't running an external amp with your speakers I am also intrigued that it gave you such negative trim numbers....Fwiw, on my HT below in a less than 2,000 cu ft room, I sit 9 ft from my front soundstage and it gave my RF-7s -4/4,5 and RC7 as 3.. My surrounds I sit within 4 ft and it came up as -6.5 and 4 and my subs were at 11.

I realize that every room is different but given I have a smaller room, sit closer to my speakers and "0" on the Main dial is THX Reference level on my AVR (which is THX ultra II certified) I would think your trim numbers would be in the -4 to -8 vicinity.

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.. The mic positions are approximately 12' away equal distant in a 24x18 room.

Yes, I followed protocol. Of course, I did also use a tripod and had the mic pointing up in all 6 locations around my sofa at ear position.

I just saw this discrepancy and want to confirm that you measured the first position from your LP and then the rest several feet to each side, as well as in front and in back of the initial position. IOW, LP is at 12 ft and you took measurements within a 6 to 8 ft radius of that position... 4 ft or so closer to your front soundstage, as well as to each side and the back.

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I've never understood or give it much thought as to why most auto room sets speaker levels so low.I know I'm not running my speakers at much below 0 regardless.

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My couch is 8' wide (3 spots to sit in), and the front array is a tad wider than that. I just put the mic in each of the 3 sitting positions as well as behind them. If I do this, no way will the mic be 2-3' minimum away from each other. However, Audyssey also states not to set the mic anywhere beyond the width of the loudspeakers. How is this possible in a narrow room? I am not near a wall. Should I just use 4 instead of 6 positions?

As for my center, I suppose it is closer in the "sweet" spot than the mains since it is centered with the sweet spot and ahead a bit of the L and R. Sorry for the confusion on that.

Troy

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The first time I ran Audyssey, I used 6 seating positions as my room is set for, and it was totally jacked up!! I have an 11' wide room and one seat is next to a wall so I am pretty sure that is the issue.

My next attempt was much better. I used three positions with the first position being the center to my three recliners (this was on the arm rest of listening position A and listening position B. I basically treated my three relincers like a two person love-seat centered in the HT) and my next two positions were MLP A, left of center and MLP B, right of center. This dialed everything in beautifully!

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My couch is 8' wide (3 spots to sit in), and the front array is a tad wider than that. I just put the mic in each of the 3 sitting positions as well as behind them. If I do this, no way will the mic be 2-3' minimum away from each other. However, Audyssey also states not to set the mic anywhere beyond the width of the loudspeakers. How is this possible in a narrow room? I am not near a wall. Should I just use 4 instead of 6 positions?

As for my center, I suppose, it is closer in the "sweet" spot than the mains since it is centered with the sweet spot and ahead a bit of the L and R. Sorry for the confusion on that.

Troy

I would use all available positions....If you have 6, I would try: 1st on the MLP. the second on the two seats on either side, 3rd and 4th a couple of feet in front of the Couch, and only one a foot or two behind the MLP. That is how I would do it in my room and I have a small Love seat instead of the couch and it's 7.1 with awesome speakers behind me.

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Hey t-man, this may be useful from what Christ told StephenM:

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/t/152823.aspx?PageIndex=2

For those that may have an interest: I didn't get any feedback on AVS, so I went to Audyssey themselves with my questions. Per their advice, the mic is calibrated +/- 2dB with my receiver. I asked if it was possible that the mic were damaged and giving faulty readings; answer is no, if the mic were damaged, it simply wouldn't operate. On my question of why the mains were set so low per my SPL meter, they couldn't really answer that one too well; they agreed that with the receiver's pink noise on the mains, my SPL meter should be fairly accurate, although without examining the meter itself its impossible to say for certain. Either way, the story comes to an interesting conclusion. With one last Audyssey run, I decided to up the gain on the sub a couple notches, I got a much different result. Previously, it had been cutting my mains by 9dB in the trim level; this time, it was only a cut of 4.5dB. With the sub, it cut the gain by 10dB (max is +/-15 for my receiver). Now my SPL meter is recording levels of 72.5dB for the mains and 72-76dB for the sub. Close enough for government work, and it sounded pretty darned good with Tron Legacy on Blu Ray and some AC/DC last night. Why the difference? I have no idea....No change in the primary measurement position from which trim levels are set....So...yeah.

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The only way to turn my sub down is with the receiver or the external power amp (passive sub), which does have level controls, and I have already turned it down a bit for this reason. I'm afraid to loose needed headroom by cutting the output with the amp level controls too much, though.

FWIW, you aren't going to lose any headroom at the amplifier/subwoofer level by reducing the gain a notch or two. It will require more voltage from your receiver's sub output, but I wouldn't expect it to be an issue.

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A trick I learned from Chris the creator of Audyssey is using
attenuators, which gave several benefits. I am using seven XLR -15db
attenuators one at each of my amps XLR inputs. This corrects the
Audyssey so my speaker levels are not maxed out at their negative
settings, lets Audyssey work correctly and offers other benefits as
well, taking out some brightness or harshness, lowering floor noise or
blackness and giving a warmer overall sound quality while also providing
better detail especially in lower volumes or quieter moments. Using the
attenuators made the most sound improvements in 2 channel listening
with a warmer more musical sound, less bright or fatiguing. Of course
this means setting my volume approximately 15db higher than when not
using the attenuators but the overall change affects much more than just
volume.

While I initially run Audyssey when
setting up my system, I still prefer to make later changes and manually
set my speaker volume levels using my SPL meter which seems more
accurate matching the speaker levels.

Note: here are a few links on using attenuators.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0803/rothwell.htm


http://www.rothwellelectronics.co.uk/html/attenuators.html


http://www.rothwellelectronics.co.uk/html/hi-fi_plus_review.html


http://www.rothwellelectronics.co.uk/html/customer_feedback.html

The links come from the Rothwell brand but there are other brands as well, this is what I use http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?PartNumber=240-414 They also have RCA
attenuators as well.

[image]

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Hey guys, I read somewhere that you should always keep levels below 0, never put them in positive numbers. If that's the case, what should I set my levels at? I don't have the mic or a psl, so going by ear! My pioneer vsx832 goes from -12 to +12 for scale. I figure -6 for klipsch towers, -3 for klipsch rp440c, and -6 for surrounds? What do you think.

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On 9/7/2011 at 10:19 AM, t-man said:

OK, I ran Audyssey twice now with my KLF 30s (I have a Denon 2310), and it bottoms out my level setting at -12 for both right and left main. The mic positions are approximately 12' away equal distant in a 24x18 room. The sub came out a notch higher at -11.5. Center (C7) at -7 and the rears (KG1) at -4.

My question is if a speaker is too efficient to play at whatever reference level the AVR is attempting to set the volume/output to without bottoming out the levels, does it simply stop attenuating, or does it then lower the reference level a bit so the remaining speakers are still in balance (lower the level from the original reference point)? I guess I'm a little concerned (perhaps for nothing??) that my levels are bottomed out. I guess that means I have a lot of headroom left?

I had the same issue with my AVR. Lower the gain on you sub as low as it goes (i went down to 1/8 or so) and run Audyssey. Raise the sub level by amp control and or sub gain later to desirable level.

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5 minutes ago, fuzzydog said:

Do y’all realize this thread is 7 years old?  

So, how does that saying go, 'No time like the present', or is it the past?  Search engine syndrome.  Ehh, maybe it will help someone out.  Who knows.

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On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 1:43 PM, Aguero90 said:

Hey guys, I read somewhere that you should always keep levels below 0, never put them in positive numbers. If that's the case, what should I set my levels at? I don't have the mic or a psl, so going by ear! My pioneer vsx832 goes from -12 to +12 for scale. I figure -6 for klipsch towers, -3 for klipsch rp440c, and -6 for surrounds? What do you think.

Fwiw, this is a thread on Audyssey trim levels on a Denon AVR. Your pioneer doesn't use Audyssey and I would at least download an SPL Meter app to try and level-match your speakers to your Listening Position. 

 

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