to Bi or not toBi-wire

[boa12]

that pioneer may even have an adjustable crossover whereas a small setting w/ a lower crossover point is really more like a large. iow, bass mgmt settings are a tweak best left to the listener's ears, hopefully after much experimentation.

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My Home Systems Page

[sunbeam64]

Shapeshifter,

I have an Infinity IL120 sub, along with RF7s,RC7 and RS7s for 5.1. It's HT setup but I use mostly for stereo/listening (small 32" Sony).Sub dialed in w/RABOS.Reciever setup using modified/advanced settings which are mode specific.Have a 14' x 24' room with 8' ceiling. Sub on opposite wall from mains.Can crank it way up,neighbors 200'+ .Still playing with setup, its' been running for 3 months so settings and placement of furniture, speakers still being adjusted.

[ShapeShifter]

sunbeam64,

Thanks for the reply. Have you considered adding another sub to get down to the 20Hz or lower range? Just a thought. Nice room size too!

Also, is your username related to the British Sunbeam marque that set four World Land Speed Records? I'm a car buff that especially likes watching Formula 1, Trans Am racing and car shows.

Regards,

Wes

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KLIPSCH IS MUSICf>

My Systems f>s>c>

This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 05-25-2002 at 05:43 AM

[sunbeam64]

Shapeshifter,

nice call on my handle(it's my toy waiting for restoration in garage).

Can't afford any additions to my system- still modifying HT room, took everything out last week to texture/paint and update electical.

Real happy with my sub, when its' going big it rocks you to the core.

[dschrier]

I have a pair of rf-3's and I feel I should get more bass for speakers with 2 8" woofers. I listened to the rf-7s and wasn't impressed with the bass response from those either. They are very loud and nice, but not very punchy to me. In comparison cerwin vegas put out a lot more bass with only a 12" woofer than these speakers do with dual 10's or 8's. I think room placement and bass perception are the key factor here.

[Mighty Favog]

If you decide to go with the bi-wire then you may want to look at Audio Advisor's site. They have a pretty good special on MIT Terminator series. The sale is something just short of half price and if you don't like/want them you can return them minus the shipping fee. I have the MITerminator 2 Bi-Wire. The bass never sounded this deep before, they also took some of the "confusion" out of the HF.

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Tom's Money Pit

[Ray Garrison]

dschrier,

First question is What are you used to hearing, and what are you comparing the bass of the RF-3 or RF-7 to? If Cerwin Vega is your benchmark for the kind of bass performance you want, you probably won't be happy with the bass response of anything other than another Cerwin Vega. That's their thing. In my opinion, the bass of the CV is not very accurate - they seem to have a pronounced "bump" in the mid-bass (say in the 50 to 80 cycle range). If you're accustomed to this, listening to just about any other speaker that has a more "accurate" bass response will be disappointing, 'cause they're going to sound anemic and lack "sock" or "punch" in comparison.

If you ask a bunch of folks to characterize different speaker brands by their most defining characteristic, you might get something like this (at least, if all the people you asked happened to have the same prejudices and preferences that I do ):

B&W? Humm, accurate and smooth midrange, sweet high end, image well, not terribly dynamic or efficient.

Klipsch? DYNAMICS! EFFICIENCY! Open and "alive". Maybe a tad harsh on the high end, depending upon other equipment used.

Polk? Uh, white lab coats.

Cerwin Vega? Bass. LOTS of bass. REALLY REALLY BIG BASS. Did I mention they have BASS?

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Music is art

Audio is engineering

Ray's Music System

[HDBRbuilder]

As for the Heresys being put up into the air, you are gonna lose some bass instead of improving it. They were designed as floor speakers!! To improve the bass, try adjusting them out at different positions from the walls/corner...until they give the best bass for you. I have found, over the years, that around 5-8 inches from a wall/corner is very nice!!

As for directivity, you may want to add risers to angle their directivity to your hearing level in your sweet spot. Heresys, properly placed with good signals going to them, are one of the best speakers made for their size. When at floor level, they can use the floor as an extension of their bass, when properly positioned.

Keep in mind that they have ALL their music going out the front of them, though. There is NO active or passive radiator in them...or any port...firing at the wall behind them for reflective/reverberative purposes!!

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I can now receive private messages

[syclone385]

Has anyone ever ported a pair of Heresys? What about building a hollow wooden box to set them on? (resonants chamber) Interesting idea, I intend to build such boxes to set mine on I will let everyone know how it goes.

[JohnA]

The pro Heresies are ported, but it kills the deep bass. The Pro versions are more efficient, but ...

John

[Audio Flynn]

Sy,

How many hours do you have on your RF-7s?

I did not really think my RB5s optimized until they had 250 hours. I biwired after about 6 months of ownership.

Or maybe I was just getting used to them; speaker burn in is a big deal to some.

[djk]

"Has anyone ever ported a pair of Heresys? What about building a hollow wooden box to set them on? (resonants chamber) Interesting idea, I intend to build such boxes to set mine on I will let everyone know how it goes." The K22E(Heresy I)will have a -3dB point of 32hz in a 3 cu ft (net) enclosure with a 4" dia port 8-3/8" long. This is a B6 tuning and requires a high pass filter with a Q=2@32hz. The EV Interface A box shows up on eBay on a regular basis, or an EV Sentry III box may be used by changing a couple of resistors. If you don't use the EV filter box the port should be 4" dia by 5-1/8" long and will be -3dB at 44hz.

[syclone385]

John,

My Heresys' are old '79 I think, never the less they are still great speakers. ( bulletproof as well) Don't really want to cut holes in them if it can be avoided. They are pulling duty as L/R surrounds right now, just not at the proper height. A box to set them on that would help bass response would be great.

djk,

are you trying to tell me that such a box exists and is all ready commercially available?

AudioF,

Only about 10 hours on the RF-7s' I guess we will see what happens as they break in.

P.S. Just got notification that my new RSW-15 is here and waiting for me to pick it up. KLIPSCH, thank you that is what I call customer sevice/satisfaction!!!

[Airpirate CVG]

Have a pair of RF-3's and bass seems to be greatly affected by the CD I am listening to. Techno such as Bjork's Army of me has plenty of bass on the other end the Beatles "White Album" does not. Maybe the RF's do not add "color" to the sound like other speakers. No bass issues with Dolby Digital movies or DTS / DTS ES. I have been told the high efficiency is one of the main culprits for loss of deep bass. I would like to have a big Klisch sub myself but, I live in an apartment - my neighbors would kill me. Speaking of which do you have the option of setting your LFE output on you receiver? Maybe set it to both so LFE goes to both sub and mains. Don't know but I switched from a Pioneer receiver to a Yamaha seems to have made a very big difference in the bass area as well.

This message has been edited by Airpirate CVG on 06-07-2002 at 07:54 PM

[Audio Flynn]

Sy,

I left mine on with maybe a watt at night with the radio on and left them on with 20 watts over a weekend when i first got them.

Yours are still fresh. Mine were a bit harsh on the top end at first.

[djk]

"djk,

are you trying to tell me that such a box exists and is all ready commercially available? A box to set them on that would help bass response would be great." The stated size is about the size of the Forte. This is a good height for the mids and highs too. An add on box could be attached to the bottom of the existing speaker to bring it up to the correct volume, this would also give a good working height. A single 6" diameter hole connecting the two would be adequate. Considering that it is the bottom of the box it could be easily closed in the future if need be. People that revere sacred cows and old plywood boxes will need to construct new boxes.

[Soundthought]

Check this out! The energy needed to create a low soundwave is much greater than that of a high one and sound naturally wants to separate its lows from

highs. So on its epic battle from amp to

speaker, the low frequecies are dominating

over the higher one. Causing various

amounts of energy to be lost from higher

frequency waves. this results in poorer

detail and overall clarity. Which we know is not cool at all. Bi-wiring allow frequencies to naturally separate at the

source and travel independently to speakers. Allowing for a cleaner, more

acurate sound reproduction. The whole

reason we buy Klipsch, right?

Also, less demands on the crossovers to clip high and low sounds gives a much more acurate image and improves overall efficiency. True bi-wire employs two differently stranded wires. Theory suggests that low frequencies have a tendency to attract more to a thick strand wire while high frequencies are more attracted to a finely stranded wire of the same gauge. So true engineered

bi-wire should include a finely stranded

lead and thicker less stranded one.

I got my 7's a year ago and after trying

many types of cables I have settled on

a set of "tributary sextet" bi-wire cables

They given me the best performance yet.

Not terribly expensive ($150 for two 8 ft.

pre-terminated cables) they help me realize many inner elements of all the

sounds from every source. Many people argue the effectiveness of bi-wiring and

i'll bet those same people dont have RF7's

Really, It boils down sensitivity and effeciency. A speaker will only sound as

good as it's design and environment it's played in will allow. Some speakers just

can't show tiny differences in sound quality as well as others. Plus, one more thing about this crazy bi-wire stuff and frankly any audio cable.

Remember, every type of speaker cable has its own sonic characteristics.

Some offer a richer tone, and some offer

clarity over bass. There are many different kinds with many different sound

qualities. My RF7's tell me every difference in one cable to the next.

Their crossovers respond well to a more

separated signal. Heighted articlation,

tighter more controlled bass, superior imaging, and a greater inner depth in the mid frequencies. It's really something.

everytime I change the slightest thing about my system, my 7's point it right out to me. Sometimes its cool, sometimes not.

I really depends on to many factors to get into. A speaker like ours that is so sensitve just speaks the truth.

That kinda leads to your problem with

lack of bass. Bi-wiring will not offer up more bass rather it will clean up the muddying of high and mid bass frequencies

which carry many accents in bass that give it a definate presence. Crashes will have more impact and kick drums suddenly become realized and details will scare you into checking behind you. With proper Bi-wire less high frequency is being fouled by low frequencies that normally cause distorion in standard cable. Distortion is mainly caused by signal degradation. That is caused for the most part by what happens to the transmission in standard cable when

low and high frequencies travel together.

Ergo: High and low sounds rely on each other but dont play well together.

It's a love-hate thing. I really can't say

enough about the ability of the RF7 series

They're the you-know-what in my book.

O.K. Here it is. I'll give you the truth.

The RF7 speakers are designed for placement flexablity and wide dispersion,

but,

They like space.

Lots of it.

About 2-6ft from back and side walls.

A minimum of 6 to 8 feet apart.

The problem though is what our ears have learned to listen to is richer, full impact, ground rumbling,chesty sound.

Thats all good... for recordings of yesterday. I was upset when i was first

breaking my babies in. I tried everything

to get that solid,deep, smackdown impact. I realized after exhausting research that

the controlled directionality of the horns

and the accuracy of the bass was giving me "true" sound which only existed 5 feet from the stack at a rock concert.

Been there, done it and was about the same as the RF7's give. The horns direct more sound at you so it can sound "tinny"

compared to traditional tweeter which

loses some edge because of a 360' disperion and early reflections. Another words, they seem brite and lack bass, really the treble is cleaner and more directed causing it to appear louder,sharper than were used to.

Horn loaded speakers are a critter all

their own. To acheive your sound dont be afraid to break all placement rules.

Try corner placement .Horns are suppose to benefit from near wall placement.

Although sound quality is harmed, more spaciousness is acheived. Corner placement also increases bass response.Up to 6db!

Again, there is a trade off in sound quality. A combination of placement, room furnishings, good Bi-wiring, and a good reciever, will deliver the best results.

These speakers just really put everthing

flawed with a room acoustically right out in the open. They tell you everthing other

speakers were afriad to.

Its a true sound. Almost to true.

Absorb some of the treble with wall coverings and be sure to use the spikes.

Stability of speakers is crucial.

Woofers are dependant on that,plus less bass is drawn to the floor letting more correct paths for bass to occur.

So do what i do.

Set the treble and bass at neutral.

Put on Frampton Live Detriot.

Turn it right on up there.

And go listen on the other side of the house. You might be surprized.

Your room mode may not allow for even one

good deep soundwave.

Hope that helps.

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[boa12]

ar, welcome aboard! what a great 1st post. i like it.

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My Home Systems Page

[syclone385]

Thanks for all the great advice. I have some leave coming up and friends from Europe to help. I don't know how the wife is going to react when I start rearranging her living room!

[Soundthought]

Sy,

These definately are "gotta move some stuff around" kind of speakers.

Even with all the acoustical and technical

information i've been studying, my 7's

still baffle me sometimes. They're very

simple in stucture, yet quite technical

in design. Placement is critical with

these speakers. Critical because it appears to me that every inch they are moved,be it left-right-front or back,

bring about different room flaws. Those in turn give us different tones and delays.

Quite noticable to some people,not so for

others. RF series mains are touchy in

that they will dictate final placement.

They will find a home. You will constantly

be impressed. No wife i've ever met thought speaker placement to be more important than furniture placement,but

with a liitle love and a whole lot of luck, she will let you furnish the room

around the speakers. That worked best for

me in the end. Of course i'm single and

have run a 7.2 full Reference 7 series

in a 12'x 16'x 7' room which might be

just a little to much for most.

But not for me...Ha

In my earlier reply i mentioned my cables.

I'm sorry but I misprinted the brand.

My front cables are "Straight Wire Sextet"

I use Tributary SP2 12ga. for all four surrounds. One more thing, For accurate

and coherent soundstaging , it's very important to use the same cable for all three front speakers. Especially, if you chose to Bi-wire. Everthing that goes in or comes out of your room will slightly change the way you perceive the sound.

Good Luck My Friend!

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