kevinmi Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 A little off topic, but hopefully interesting- I have a 2M Blue on one turntable(Oracle Delphi MKII), and a 2M Black on my reference turntable (Oracle Premier), and there isn't a whole big difference in the sound. The Black is obviously more detailed, but the Shibata stylus is not forgiving on it's set-up, and has a tendency to pick up more groove noise, especially on used records. The Blue is a great overall choice for the money in my opinion. The Black is very close in sound to my Koetsu Black MC cart, without the added expense of having to use a step up transformer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted December 10, 2012 Author Share Posted December 10, 2012 A little off topic, but hopefully interesting- I have a 2M Blue on one turntable(Oracle Delphi MKII), and a 2M Black on my reference turntable (Oracle Premier), and there isn't a whole big difference in the sound. The Black is obviously more detailed, but the Shibata stylus is not forgiving on it's set-up, and has a tendency to pick up more groove noise, especially on used records. The Blue is a great overall choice for the money in my opinion. The Black is very close in sound to my Koetsu Black MC cart, without the added expense of having to use a step up transformer. When purchasing the Rega P5, the 2M blue was recommended by needle doctor based on my budget, and what my listening habits were. I am extremely happy with the decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhoak Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I have a good friend who has a Music Hall MMF-7 with a Ortofon 2M Blue and a MMF-9 with a 2M Black. He uses the MMF-9 to play his new albums and the 7 to play anything he buys used. Honestly I couldn't hear enough difference between them to justify the additional cost. During an afternoon listening session a few months ago he reluctantly admitted that he probably ought to sell the MMF-9/2M Black rig as it just wasn't THAT much better. Now he's talking about selling both of them and spring for a $6K VPI deck and $3K cartridge. All I can do is just shake my head. I wish I had that kind of coin to piss away for what amounts to an incremental (at best) improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I've pretty much decided if the majority of your collection is vintage the Red is the way to go and best bang for the buck. To me it's truly the replacement for the venerable V-15 for both price and performance[] Here's some crazy logic for you, would you rather pay $650 for a 2M Black when 90% of you collection is vintage and only 10% of your collection is going to give you that Shibata sound or save yourself $550 on the 2M Red and buy yourself a boatload more of vintage and new?? YMMV but this is how I ended up settling for sub $300 cartridges even on my lowly 4K table[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I have a good friend who has a Music Hall MMF-7 with a Ortofon 2M Blue and a MMF-9 with a 2M Black. He uses the MMF-9 to play his new albums and the 7 to play anything he buys used. Honestly I couldn't hear enough difference between them to justify the additional cost. During an afternoon listening session a few months ago he reluctantly admitted that he probably ought to sell the MMF-9/2M Black rig as it just wasn't THAT much better. Now he's talking about selling both of them and spring for a $6K VPI deck and $3K cartridge. All I can do is just shake my head. I wish I had that kind of coin to piss away for what amounts to an incremental (at best) improvement. I have to politely differ. Stepping up to a VPI and a high-end Moving Coil cart will yield much more than incremental improvements. Quite frankly, just moving up to MC from MM will open your eyes. For $400 you can get a Denon 103R and play all your records and be very happy. I've got a poor man's budget and have bootstrapped my way up the ladder and trust me when I say improvements in record playback pay real sonic benefits. Indeed, I have the Ortofon OM40 MM which costs the same as the Denon 103R and guess which one is on my table? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 +1 for MC... I have a p5 and 103r, I am sure there are much better set ups out there but I am happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Bent stylus? Drown your sorrows in some Bent Fabric! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I have to politely differ As do I. Horse hockey. MC or MM is a matter of choice. In my case, I've no interest in a stylus I can't replace or extra money for step up equipment. More power and pleasure to those who do...but I get accuracy from a variety of fine MM cartridges and that's all I ask. Don't want to start a ruckus here, as I am in no way denigrating MC cartridges. But it's about personal choice, not accuracy IMHO. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I have to politely differ As do I. Horse hockey. MC or MM is a matter of choice. In my case, I've no interest in a stylus I can't replace or extra money for step up equipment. More power and pleasure to those who do...but I get accuracy from a variety of fine MM cartridges and that's all I ask. Don't want to start a ruckus here, as I am in no way denigrating MC cartridges. But it's about personal choice, not accuracy IMHO. Dave Now, now my good friend, it's more than a matter of choice. There really is some science behind all this. As I understand it, and cribbing a quote from another audiophile over on Audiokarma, " the main reason why a LOMC will sound better is that the coils of wire have much fewer turns of wire, and so weigh less. That means that the moving mass of the stylus (stylus tip, cantilever and coils) will be much lower, and it will react quicker to variations in the record groove, resulting in lower distortion". Price does not always follow fashion. I think there are real reasons LOCMs bring more ducats. Sure a lot of it's overpriced hype, but there is certainly a sonic difference and IMO, overall improvement in sound. Remember we are working with very low level signals here. Inductance, capacitance and a bunch of other things are real factors. I presume you are now suitably chastised and will soon be posting a mea culpa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Yes of course Thebes it's all accepted audiophile dogma. Unfortunately I was put on this earth to be a devil's advocate (that's why I shunned law school). So why use a bicycle when a freight train does so much more? [6] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxx Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I have to politely differ As do I. Horse hockey. MC or MM is a matter of choice. In my case, I've no interest in a stylus I can't replace or extra money for step up equipment. More power and pleasure to those who do...but I get accuracy from a variety of fine MM cartridges and that's all I ask. Don't want to start a ruckus here, as I am in no way denigrating MC cartridges. But it's about personal choice, not accuracy IMHO. Dave Considering all this and what's been said.... What would you recommend as the best "speaker" wire to get for a high end system?- - - - JUST KIDDING.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Yes of course Thebes it's all accepted audiophile dogma. Unfortunately I was put on this earth to be a devil's advocate (that's why I shunned law school). So why use a bicycle when a freight train does so much more? Sorry old soul, but to me it's more than simple dogma. Not all in audio is simple dogma. Not all measurements imply truth either. Mishaps I'm extropolating from my own experience, and several of my close audiophile friends in the DC area who have wider learning and experience quality audio systems than I. However, none of us is about to go back to the perceived benefits, by youse guys, not me, of moving magnets over moving coils. I'm sure you and Dave have both spent considerable time comparing the two topologies and reached your conclusion using that final arbitrator, your own ears. If so, good stout fellows... ...you're going deef![] As for me I put a certain amount of faith in my own ears. After all the noise from all those angels dancing on the head of a pin have cost me sleep from time-to-time. As far as Boxx's comments about cables, it would appear that the length of a cable, not it's composition, can have a dramatic affect on vinyl playback, causing inductance that has to be factored in when choosing a cart or loading it properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JL Sargent Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I was driving the company service truck this week (all 12K lbs of it) and one of the crappy stereo speakers came undone. I wasn't listening very loud to a great Amos Lee tune at the time. Anyway, I continued to drive and listen and found that even with one speaker blown I could control the balance and get a clean mono sound from the remaining speaker. I'm not convinced that I enjoyed the music any less than with both speakers working. No reason for me to worry about carts or cables I guess. [Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 I'm sure there is a "Black Smith" on the Forum. Let him take a "Wack at it." Can't hurt at this stage.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 ...you're going deef! What? I'm sorry did you say something? Dave, did you hear anything? Those darn angels are making a ruckus again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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