Deang Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 I've been reading about this off and on for a while now. Bob and Al say this has BS written all over it. We are only talking about the concept as it applies to crossover use, not in circuits with DC. It seems that one can always find a wealth of information on why something doesn't work, but not always much in the way of why it does or should, especially if it relates to something that can be supposedly heard and not measured. IOWs, I assume that if there is no technical explanation available for consumption to explain something, than there must not be a measurement for it. What makes this particular thing interesting is that one can find a lot of words on why it doesn't or shouldn't work in crossovers, but the folks in that camp don't really have any measureable evidence either. Well, I suppose that's not completely true -- if you remove the primary cap and try to listen with just the bypass cap, I don't even think you would hear anything, which seems to imply the thing isn't doing much of anything in the circuit. Then we have what I'll just call "The JBL Problem". While Bob states, "...I am aware that JBL used this trick in a few speaker crossovers for a brief time" -- the loons have actually been doing it in the majority of their pro and consumer products for over 20 years. The "problem" is that while you can find a ton of marketing literature describing the virtues (better transient behavior, lower distortion, etc.), you can't find anything technical. Their newer stuff uses a mix of bypass capacitors and DC biasing. The most interesting thing to me about this one is how one day their not using them, and then the next day they are -- and then never deviate. Compare first gen N110 to second gen N110 network (same with N112A). If no diffference, why bother -- all it does is add unnecessary cost to the loudspeaker. Reliable Capacitor makes the MultiCap. They sell two versions. One is the value cap, which is a two section type, the other is a ten section. Both of these capacitors are based on the bypassing or cascading principle. This company produces great stuff. For example, they sell the PPT Theta, one of the few consumer available film and foils. With so many good capacitors in their inventory, again, why bother? Of the people I know that I have any amount of real respect for when it comes to this stuff -- two are against and two say it works. Anyone feel like weighing in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Dean, Interesting. I'm no help, of course. But i do enjoy trying to understand this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 "Anyone feel like weighing in? " There is a word for people that can't hear the differences in capacitors, but I'm too polite to use it here. Atwater Kent radios used the MIT multi-section capacitor technique (with DC bias), clear back in the late 20s and early 30s. JBL has quite a few low wage unskilled labor positions, and many amusing mistakes crop up from time-to-time. People copying things they don't understand make mistakes. Drew Daniels and I were looking over the network drawings for the 4430 studio monitor when he remarked on the 0.01µF bypass caps on the film caps in the woofer section, muttering to himself that "use a bypass on all the caps didn't mean the ones in the woofer section". That's just one problem you have with draftsmen that have no (electrical) knowledge of what they are drawing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny's Jill Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 There is a word for people that can't hear the differences in capacitors, but I'm too polite to use it here. That's nice. Craig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Deleted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Some things are inaudible. I am glad I can't hear them. There is a word for those who can hear the inaudible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhendrix Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Some things are inaudible. I am glad I can't hear them. There is a word for those who can hear the inaudible. THANK YOU, BOB! You made me smile. Hope you're doing well . . . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Dean, I will be hosting a planned audio experimentation event in 2 weeks. We will be installing, measuring/testing, and listening to all sorts of stuff including crossovers, drivers, horns, tubes, amps, EQs, electronics, etc. If you send me 2 crossovers.........one with........one without........we can put it to a jury test and report back. If you are interested, let me know. To make it simple I have heresys that can be the speakers used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 Is the word, contradiction, gifted, or just [bs]? lol Some things are inaudible. I am glad I can't hear them. There is a word for those who can hear the inaudible. THANK YOU, BOB! You made me smile. Hope you're doing well . . . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 22, 2013 Author Share Posted April 22, 2013 "There is a word for those who can hear the inaudible." Comparing two caps using white noise and Grado 225 headphones, Al couldn't hear a difference, while his wife could. The measurable difference in dB was .08dB. Al calls her hearing a difference insignificant and the same as not hearing a difference. Of course, we really have no way of knowing if the .08dB difference was responsible for what she heard. At any rate, I think she might be an audiophile. An audiophile is an audio enthusiast, and I think it's okay to be one of those. This wasn't intended to be a thread about capacitors. I'm sick of capacitors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 "....... Of course, we really have no way of knowing if the .08dB difference was responsible for what she heard. .... Dean: This is an easy one. A 0.08 dB difference would not be responsible (but you already knew that). -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mongo171 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 "....... Of course, we really have no way of knowing if the .08dB difference was responsible for what she heard. .... Dean: This is an easy one. A 0.08 dB difference would not be responsible (but you already knew that). -Tom I think the equipment that measured the 0.08db has an error rating that is larger than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Bob, anyone that can't hear the difference between an electrolytic and a film cap is functionally deaf (in my book). I am functionally deaf when I am tired, or when my blood sugar is too low. Just because your ears can detect the presence (or absence) of a signal doesn't mean you have good discrimination. More than thirty years ago I found out that I had to eat every five hours, or after five-and-a-half hours I lost my ability to discriminate and produce a good mix. Eating after this point did no good, I was done for the day. I would recover after a good night's sleep and a good breakfast. There is nothing wrong with being deaf (or blind), but don't put yourself forward as a leader. Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles may have a good ear, but I wouldn't trust their opinion on VHS vs Beta. Meter readers remind me of the story about the drunk looking for his car keys. He soon has a bunch of people helping him look. One finally asks, 'where was the last place you knew you had them'? 'In the alley' 'Why are we here out front then'? 'The light is better' Test equipment measures things we know how to measure. Whether of not these things correlate with good sound remains to be seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 "I'm sick of capacitors." I'm sick of people that can't hear trying to tell me what I can and can't hear. It would be nice to have a 'good sound meter' for times when I am tired, my blood sugar is out-of-whack, or my meds are causing bad tinnitus. Until then, I am stuck with my ears. ****************************************************** john curl "You people worry too much about superficial things." "Listening is more important than measuring." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Dennis, There are certainly good caps and bad caps. Let's just use the good caps though. Using caps as tone controls (selecting caps with varing degrees of badness) is what I disagree with. Use a tone control if you want. Just let the crossover perform as a device to make the output of the speaker conform to the input. Do your adjustments somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Dean, there are quantifiable reasons why capacitors sound different. Just stick to film for speaker crossovers and don't look back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 Ever listen to an Original Advent Loudspeaker, Dynaco A25, AR-3, or Dahlquist DQ-10. All very popular speakers at one time and people still use them. Want to know what happens to their sound when you start mucking with their caps and coils? You should hear what an Advent sounds like with films in it. It sounds nice, but it sure as hell isn't an Advent anymore. When it finally sinks in what you've done -- you start hunting for good electrolytics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 there are other ways of altering the cap q... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Dean, could you say more about electrolytics? They are the stock caps in Advents? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 The Dynaco A25s I have had Jensen electrolytics in them that went clunk, clunk when you shook them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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