Who DOESN'T need high-end electronics?

[Boomzilla]

I see thread after thread here and elsewhere on the web where a newbie says "I have X speakers - what amp do I need?" The usual suspects all then pile on with how the newbie needs to save up for gazillion-watt monoblocks. So I just thought I'd post a "general info" on who actually DOES and DOESN'T need those high-$$$ electronics.

Let me say up front that some speakers and some rooms DO demand higher power and control. For example:

1. If your speakers are extremely inefficient

2. If your speakers are rated at four ohms or less

3. If your speakers have complicated crossovers with extreme phase-angles

4. If your room is the size of an auditorium

5. If you like to listen at roaring levels (this gets worse with time since you go deaf...)

One or more of the above conditions is probably justification NOT to use an AV receiver. For example, I've owned a couple of pairs of Theil loudspeakers in the past. Despite being wonderful speakers, they were the dickens to drive and needed lots of current even at lower listening levels.

On the other hand, the converse of the above conditions means that even a hundred watts is probably overkill. Of course, to get by with an AVR, ALL of the following conditions have to be met; i.e.

6. Your speakers produce 95 decibels or more at one watt at one meter

7. Your speakers are rated at eight ohms and don't fall very far below at any frequency

8. Your speakers' crossovers are fairly simple and don't increase amplifier load significantly

9. Your room is reasonably sized

10. You DON'T listen at absurd levels

In such circumstances, what does one really get for spending extra money on amplification? Actually, not much. I base that statement on listening in the following circumstances:

I have Klipsch Cornwall IIIs. Klipsch (perhaps somewhat optimistically) specs them at 102 decibels at one watt and one meter. Nevertheless, the speakers are certainly highly efficient by any measure. My room measures 25 x 15, and is treated with ATS sound absorbing panels to deaden echo. I don't listen at loud levels unless I have friends over who want to hear the system crank.

I have tried the following amplifiers with the Cornwalls:

• VTL Compact 100 tube monoblocks (100 watts each)
• Rogue Audio Tempest Magnum tube integrated (60 wpc)
• Emotiva Mini-X (50 wpc)
• Emotiva XPA-2 (300 wpc)
• HK AVR 1565 (50 wpc rating - probably closer to 20)
• Pioneer SA-5200 (10 wpc)

You know what? Although all of the above sounded different, they all sounded just fine! Even the 10 wpc Pioneer was adequate to drive the Cornwalls to room-filling sound. So are the high-ticket amplifiers worth their premium cost? In my room and with my speakers, no they aren't. This is not to say that the more expensive amps lack virtues. Among the virtues of the more expensive amps:

Better construction quality that probably translates into longer service life

Versatility to drive speakers that the less expensive (and less powerful) amplifiers can't

Ability to play significantly louder without strain

Do these virtues justify the price differences? Again, in my room and with my speakers, no they don't.

The conclusion of this ramble: Consider carefully what you need and what you don't before allocating a significant portion of your audio budget to amplification. It is VERY easy to spend a great deal of money for amplification capabilities that you don't need and may never use. The speakers you choose, the listening room you use, and your volume preferences should dictate the amount of power that you buy - not any misguided notion that more powerful amps (or those with premium brand names) are always "better."

Cordially - Boomzilla (Moniker NOT indicative of listening preferences)

[Heritage_Head]

My response is that we are not buying health insurance or somthing that we really do need. In fact do we really NEED any of these things? The answer is no we dont. It really comes down to how far we want to take it and what makes us happy doing it. Value is important but to some people everything we have is a waste of money to them.

[Boomzilla]

No argument whatsoever from me. My point was not that we shouldn't buy what we want, but rather that sometimes the uninformed (who don't have the money to spare) are coached by internet "experts" to spend a significant share of their budget on components that are overkill for their purposes.

[billybob]

All I can say is after going seperates with my 50 watt vintage (inexpensive) system I was pleased by the noticeably wider and less distortion soundstage. Recently after getting a 250 watt per channel newer yet still a good condition bargain/used preamp tuner/amp. I am pleased to report a similar soundstage with even less distortion with more authority. Using less or similar volume levels.

[mike stehr]

I see thread after thread here and elsewhere on the web where a newbie says "I have X speakers - what amp do I need?" The usual suspects all then pile on with how the newbie needs to save up for gazillion-watt monoblocks. So I just thought I'd post a "general info" on who actually DOES and DOESN'T need those high-$$$ electronics

Where elsewhere? If it's a audio message board then one needs to take comments with a grain of salt...

[dtel]

There is a big difference between need and want. []

I really do not care about the electronics or brand, and truthfully even the speakers as long as the sound is there. [8]

[Heritage_Head]

I also think some advise is with future proof in mind. Buying what will work right now might not work if the person upgrades down the road (and i think most of us do at some point). If someone buys a smaller cheeper amp and then changes speakers (even brands) will that amp still work? Buying what will work now and in the future saves money and gives the person a better product taboot.

[Boomzilla]

Where elsewhere? If it's a audio message board then one needs to take comments with a grain of salt...

Yes, it goes without saying that advice given on the internet (including mine) should be examined critically. However, many come to audio boards for information and, lacking any other authoritative source, accept the advice given as gospel. The advice to overbuy on electronics is thickest on the boards of the electronics manufacturers. The fanboys are quick to advise enough power to run the starship Enterprise...

The purpose of this post isn't to discourage the purchase of whatever electronics suit your budget and/or your taste. The point is that for many, separates are not necessary to achieve excellent sound.

Since subwoofers in HT systems do the "heavy lifting" of bass response, the current demands on the main and auxiliary loudspeakers are significantly reduced. For stereo listening, integrated amplifiers or stereo receivers still offer excellent sound at reasonable prices. Not everyone can avail themselves of the "bargain amp" option, but it is more frequently a viable option than the online forums would indicate.

[Boomzilla]

I also think some advise is with future proof in mind...

An excellent point, and one that should surely be considered during buying decisions. In my case, my Cornwall IIIs are to be my "final" speakers until I need to move to a different residence. If the new home hasn't room for the Cornwalls (likely since we'd like to "downsize"), then my follow up system will consist of self-powered monitors and a small sub.

[Boomzilla]

All I can say is after going seperates with my 50 watt vintage (inexpensive) system I was pleased by the noticeably wider and less distortion soundstage. Recently after getting a 250 watt per channel newer yet still a good condition bargain/used preamp tuner/amp. I am pleased to report a similar soundstage with even less distortion with more authority. Using less or similar volume levels.

How interesting. My experience is just the opposite. A Chinese hybrid integrated (Qinpu) with 16 wpc produced better soundstage and clarity than my 300 WPC dreadnaught.

[Boomzilla]

All I can say is after going seperates with my 50 watt vintage (inexpensive) system I was pleased by the noticeably wider and less distortion soundstage. Recently after getting a 250 watt per channel newer yet still a good condition bargain/used preamp tuner/amp. I am pleased to report a similar soundstage with even less distortion with more authority. Using less or similar volume levels.

How interesting. My experience is the opposite. A Chinese hybrid (Qinpu) with 16 wpc developed better soundstage and clarity than my 300 wpc behemoth.

[cfelliot]

This is why I got the Emotiva UPA line to drive my Heresy system and not the XPA series.

A UPA-200 at 125W is more than enough to drive 100dB level speakers in all but the largest rooms.

I went many a year with a 60W Bryston 2BLP on a pair of Cornwalls and it was wonderful and the clipping light never came on!

Now, the Emotiva XPA-1L that will do 35W class A and then switch to A/B might be a different story!

[billybob]

All I can say is after going seperates with my 50 watt vintage (inexpensive) system I was pleased by the noticeably wider and less distortion soundstage. Recently after getting a 250 watt per channel newer yet still a good condition bargain/used preamp tuner/amp. I am pleased to report a similar soundstage with even less distortion with more authority. Using less or similar volume levels.

How interesting. My experience is the opposite. A Chinese hybrid (Qinpu) with 16 wpc developed better soundstage and clarity than my 300 wpc behemoth.

That is interesting.

[Boxx]

I have always thought that the "law of diminishing returns" was so very appropriate when associated with or applied to high-end electronics.

[derrickdj1]

The problem being a newbie, they don't really know what they want or where their audio quest will lead them. There is a steep learning curve on proper setup, equipment tweaking and understanding what certain components can and can't do.. For example, I am still learniing tweaks on my avr and subwoofer setup. That is one of the reasons I hang out on this forum. Also, the descriptor often used to describe amps, speakers, ect., like night and day, wipe the floor, and others confuse newbies.

I also believe the look of the system can be pleasing and that is also a major consideration in what one purchases. I am a proud member of Klipsch audio school 101.

[RT FAN]

I have always thought that the "law of diminishing returns" was so very appropriate when associated with or applied to high-end electronics.

Much like the return on high end wines, is a bottle of Ch. Petrus really worth 44 times the price of a bottle of CakeBread Cellars Cabernet? Of course not, the value is in the scarcity & allure of a limited release.

[Boxx]

I have always thought that the "law of diminishing returns" was so very appropriate when associated with or applied to high-end electronics.

Much like the return on high end wines, is a bottle of Ch. Petrus really worth 44 times the price of a bottle of CakeBread Cellars Cabernet? Of course not, the value is in the scarcity & allure of a limited release.

So is perception the key to it all?

[tube fanatic]

This train of thought can just as easily be applied to the stereo stores of days gone by. If the dealer was trying to push a particular amp, he often played the selection just a "little" louder than the previously demonstrated unit. Most people leaned toward the louder amp even if, when level matched, it wasn't any better, and possibly not as good. As far as buying an amp with future speaker upgrades in mind, that may not be valid either since the best sound is always obtained when the proper synergy exists between the amp and speakers. That happened to a guy down the road who absolutely loved the sound of his LSs when played through a '70s Mac SS amp. After selling the LSs and getting CWs, he couldn't stand the sound, wound up selling the Mac, and went out and bought a Rogue Stereo 90 (which he loves in triode mode, but not ultralinear.) I've always advised people to do the amp and speakers as a combo and have not encountered any disappointments as a result.

[RT FAN]

I have always thought that the "law of diminishing returns" was so very appropriate when associated with or applied to high-end electronics.

Much like the return on high end wines, is a bottle of Ch. Petrus really worth 44 times the price of a bottle of CakeBread Cellars Cabernet? Of course not, the value is in the scarcity & allure of a limited release.

So is perception the key to it all?

To a certain extent, Yes. The same can be said about cars, or fashion, booze or stereo equipment. I beleive people can do what ever they want to with their money, but as a return on investment is Krell or Martin Logan equipment that far superior to say Rotel to command such a premium? I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

For me, I'll take the 3 cases of good wines & throw multiple dinner parties with lots of friends over nursing one exceptional bottle by myself. []

[Boomzilla]

...So is perception the key to it all?

To a certain extent, Yes...as a return on investment is Krell or Martin Logan equipment that far superior to say Rotel to command such a premium? I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder...

So is Milla Kunis worth the return on investment over Hillary Clinton? Yes, beauty IS in the eye of the beholder!