NOSValves Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 I haven't resorted to name calling or hurling insults, so I don't know what you're talking about. You went after Mark for his inexperience, which is laughable. I had the Behringer unit, twice. Had the mic too. Yeah I know, hard to believe isn't it. Had some Lexicon units too, they were nice. I know what processed sound, sounds like. Arkansas May not have been the ideal setting, but it was apples to apples. Uh, so what's wrong with the Crowns, not up to your standards or something? Damn that's funny. Dean first I didn't go after Mark like you insinuate.....what I did do was ask him a question about his experiences with what he is condemning with such a broad brush. Dean you can act innocent but I believe you really no better..! Your list above made my point that you are condemning with a broad brush based on very little real experience. It might have been apples to apples but there were those there that picked the active over the passive also or have you forgotten? The Crown remark is just stupid Dean Okay now....and I should be the last person on earth to have to point this out...................I see no where in Mark's post where he said anything but WHAT HIS PREFERENCE IS...just like my very first post on this subject in this thread. I said my statement bluntly and straight to the point would be the only real difference. Mark with his scholarly and polite manor is garnishing the same results as I did.... yet again those with little minds and lack of security in their approach are getting those panties in the twist because someone has a different preference then they do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 (edited) Well, here is what you said, "Sorry Mark but honestly do you really have the experience necessary to make such a broad statement?" Considering his background, that's offensive no matter how you look at it. I've vehemently disagreed, but I haven't insulted anyone. Believe whatever you want. Oh, wait, you mean Bonehead - after he accused me of basically being a charlatan and self proclaimed "expert" - I think I might have tossed something back at him but it was pretty light. Yes, all the active guys picked the active set up. Your statement about the Crowns was revealing. They were apparently good enough at the time, but now they don't even carry enough weight for me to say I have experience with active set ups - consistency thou art a jewel. IOWs, you trivialized and attempted to invalidate my experience because of the equipment I was using. Stupid indeed. Edited August 6, 2014 by DeanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Funny thing is I suspect he did not mean what you think he meant.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 (edited) Most people seem to agree on what "sounds good". Not that I can detect. Most here count "good sound" as DSP processed crossovers, digital sources, big SS amps, and CD horns and subwoofers. That wouldn't sound good to me, or any of the minimalists I know. We'd probably have an LP player, tube amp, and 2-way speakers without subwoofers. I suppose the essential difference would be that I can't extract "good sound" from a string of those kind of electronics. Not to mention I would never listen at the levels I hear most often mentioned here. So, probably I was being more general to the bigger audio community, and not simply talking about people with K-horns? Sorry Mark but honestly do you really have the experience necessary to make such a broad statement? There is good and bad examples in all things audio. The only thing I can take from your statement is that you have exhibited a closed mind full of predisposed ideas of what is or is not possible. Unfortunately many here are exhibiting the same attitude. Out of the whole thread the best post I've seen is when Dave said in a reply....." Friend, my ears and mind are wide open" miketn Which part struck you as closed minded, Mike? Mark I hope you understand I wasn't "going after you" as Dean tried to insinuate. It was a honest question. You are painting with broad brush in those statements but based on what appears to be some past experiences you are ready to dismiss these other approaches but have you really put in the time and effort to hear and explore what you are so quick to condemn? It's best described as prejudice because if you haven't heard the EV's, Yamaha, Ashely DSP units as well as others that some of us are using then you have formed an opinion based on no actual experience. Were is the Open Mind in this situation? Mark I think your better than that and that is why I asked the question for you and me to understand were we are both coming from on this subject. miketn Edited August 6, 2014 by mikebse2a3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 thankfully I have nothing to do with digital processing units, EQ's or active crossovers....so please tell me how my business benifits directly from this BS....I don't get it! By denigrating what has become industry standard components and methods for dealing with performance anomalies, and insisting on adherence to "the path" of simplicity as the only way to go, you hope to steer business to yourself. You have insisted that the simplest "path" gives the best results in all cases (such as with tube equipment), with no proof at all of what you state as true. Perhaps that is because there is no such proof. There have been advances in horn technology during the last 30 years or so. Constant directivity horns are a good example. They require equalization for proper performance because of their design. When implemented properly, CD horns have much less, or no, beaming of high frequencies. Folded bass horns have traditionally caused time alignment problems because of differences in the acoustic path length between them and the other drivers in the horn. With the Khorn that difference is about 4 feet. It is impossible to correct this in a practical manner other than to do it electronically. You say the solution is to redesign the speaker. That's not practical. It is much easier to correct the time alignment with a processor. After that alignment was done on my Khorns they sounded much closer to what I hear when I hear live music. And recordings I thought were "bad" suddenly sounded "better" with no other changes to my equipment. Industry standard???? I hate to tell you but the last major audio show I went to I do not recall seeing a single device like you are trumpeting here. The industry standard you speak about is the pro sound reinforcement industry. Not the home living room audiophile community. on another note if I was truly in here trying to steer business my way I think I would be better served to chummy up with button/knob techno babble guys like you! You guys use multiple amplifiers in you system which would mean more products to sell you! But if I did that I would have to water my products down sound wise to meet the level of sound you folks like to achieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 I haven't resorted to name calling or hurling insults, so I don't know what you're talking about. You should its way more fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Okay now....and I should be the last person on earth to have to point this out...................I see no where in Mark's post where he said anything but WHAT HIS PREFERENCE IS...just like my very first post on this subject in this thread. I said my statement bluntly and straight to the point would be the only real difference. Mark with his scholarly and polite manor is garnishing the same results as I did.... yet again those with little minds and lack of security in their approach are getting those panties in the twist because someone has a different preference then they do! Man you just don't get it.....I gave you a for that post and your panties have been in a wade ever since. Get over it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 (edited) Well, here is what you said, "Sorry Mark but honestly do you really have the experience necessary to make such a broad statement?" So you read minds? Yes, all the active guys picked the active set up. Was jc an active guy at the time? Or tube guy? Your statement about the Crowns was revealing. They were apparently good enough at the time, but now they don't even carry enough weight for me to say I have experience with active set ups - consistency thou art a jewel. IOWs, you trivialized and attempted to invalidate my experience because of the equipment I was using. Stupid indeed. Good grief Dean......you honestly believe that warrents enough experience to condemn all the options people have chosen? Edited August 6, 2014 by mikebse2a3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Guy's I have to go for awhile but I promise to come back to play..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Okay now....and I should be the last person on earth to have to point this out...................I see no where in Mark's post where he said anything but WHAT HIS PREFERENCE IS...just like my very first post on this subject in this thread. I said my statement bluntly and straight to the point would be the only real difference. Mark with his scholarly and polite manor is garnishing the same results as I did.... yet again those with little minds and lack of security in their approach are getting those panties in the twist because someone has a different preference then they do! Man you just don't get it.....I gave you a for that post and your panties have been in a wade ever since. Get over it... Nope.....way too much water went under this bridge... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted August 6, 2014 Klipsch Employees Share Posted August 6, 2014 Some of you preach the high road while shouting from the ditch.Look in the mirror my friend..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 (edited) Look, it just read that way, okay? Who's JC? I never condemned the process, but only questioned the sonic integrity of the units. Edited August 6, 2014 by DeanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Some of you preach the high road while shouting from the ditch.Look in the mirror my friend..... Damn, you again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted August 6, 2014 Klipsch Employees Share Posted August 6, 2014 I agree with Craig on a critical point. Start with a well behaved driver, and you don't need as much correction. ) Well behaved how? Flat power response? Flat power response? Or that it would throw a fit when you don't buy it candy and says yes sir and yes ma'am? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted August 6, 2014 Klipsch Employees Share Posted August 6, 2014 Some of you preach the high road while shouting from the ditch.Look in the mirror my friend..... Damn, you again? What happened to you? You used to be reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch Employees Chief bonehead Posted August 6, 2014 Klipsch Employees Share Posted August 6, 2014 I have no issue with active units, my issue is with the parts quality in the pro unitsseriously?? Is there really an issue or is that you have to have an issue to justify what you do? Lol!! Chief bonehead says....what a bonehead!! I love you man! I have to find a way to come have lunch with you so that I can replace some caps, coils and resistors......in that noggin of yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Couple of trivial comments. I personally think Mark's art analogy should be post of the year. I totally get (what I perceive to be) his viewpoint there and would agree with it as an excellent birds eye viewpoint of understanding. Regarding hearing a passive verses active (Rigma's passive in Hope verses active) what I find interesting are some of the suggestions that anything other than a passive puts ice-picks into some peoples ear or rips their heads off or other (stupid) analogies. I personally thought the active and passive sounded very much alike. Maybe it's me that has ice-picks in the ears. Tis ok by me. I was not hearing significant differences in the sound yet, the passive we heard (as I understand) cost about $3,000 in parts alone. As Mark1101 mentioned earlier, it was not very flexible to other uses. Rigma swapped the K69 for the TAD's and basically had to build another pair of passives, more $$$$. Speaking for myself, the two sounded excellent. Therefore, the idea of cost comes into play....do I want to spend $3,000 on a first rate passive or, $1,000 on a nice active and get substantially similar sound. (equal in my book I'm just trying to be a bit "PC") Oh, and I've also since acquired some TAD's so I've saved that extra cost as well since I didn't have to rebuild anything. I want to reiterate that for the analogy I think he was painting (pun only semi-intended) Mark gets post of the year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Good grief Dean......you honestly believe that warrents enough experience to condemn all the options people have chosen? The word "condemn" keeps popping up Mike, and I don't think anyone was condemning anything, just choosing. con·demn/kənˈdɛm/ Show Spelled [kuhn-dem] Show IPA verb (used with object) 1. to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted August 6, 2014 Share Posted August 6, 2014 Mike, First off, all of those things you mentioned are loaded with opamps and uPs. I have had listened to hundreds of components with opamps and uPs and I have never heard a signal output that I thought was superior to a phono cartridge and tubed amplifier. I have had all sorts of SS audio gear too. I am not sure how much time and effort you think is required, but I got my first stereo 45 years ago. No, I have not heard YOUR specific setup - of course. Nor millions upon millions of other setups. And, I don't intend to hear them all for rather obvious reasons. Right? So, we all must generalize, and I am rather good at generalizing my preferences, because I know them very well and have lived with them a long time. The trouble with generalizing is how is that fair to anyone or anything..? If someone doesn't have the best experience with a tube pre-amp of some other brand would you appreciate them including your designs into their generalized opinion especially if they never heard your design? If someone doesn't have a good experience with an ALK crossover would it be OK to form a generalized opinion that includes Dean's designs? miketn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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