derrickdj1 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 A lot of the signal that the driver does not need is dissapated as heat in the passive xo. Huh? Where does the full signal go if it is not spent in the xo? A Hi frequency driver has to get rid of the bass portion of the signal to not damage the tweeter and vice versa for the bass driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattSER Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) Okay, so what I'm hearing here is that bi-wiring is useless. That makes sense. The only point I see in bi-wiring is if you lost the brass jumpers. As far as bi-amping, the benefits are still seen if I'm using separate terminals on the same receiver, right? Like if the receiver has extra terminals specifically meant for bi-amping or separate "speaker B" terminals? This should help the HF to avoid adverse effects from the LF impedance dips? Edited September 16, 2014 by mattSER Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydro_pyro Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Don, you missed my point entirely. I wasn't talking about using the same outlet, where the sag would occur. I meant plugging in the microwave into the room outlet, and plugging the fan into another circuit outlet, perhaps in a different room. In this example, there would be no voltage sag for the fan, since the large resistive losses are only occurring in one of the two distribution legs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydro_pyro Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Active, LOL. I was talking about decades BEFORE active... When bands used three and four-band line-level crossovers and separate amps for each frequency range... Bi-amping, sometimes tri- and quad-amping... Was it only because the amps weren't powerful enough to run the entire speaker set using passive crossovers? Certainly there was a reason this was done. So, those who say bi-wiring serves no purpose... Do you assert that there are NO resistive losses across your speaker wires? Or do you assert that those losses only affect the amplitude of certain frequencies? ...and by the way, I completely understand the difference between bi-wiring and bi-amping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ski Bum Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Do you assert that there are NO resistive losses across your speaker wires? No, that was the guy with straw sticking out of his sleeves and collar. The point is that resistive losses don't amount to a bee fart in a hurricane if you choose sufficient ga. wire to begin with. Most of us err on the side of overkill anyway, running 12 ga wire for lengths shorter than 20' in my case. No worries about resistive losses whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 A loudspeaker has a maximum output. With Heritage, it's about 125dB. I can do that with one amplifier and still achieve the 5x headroom requirement. No one talks about power compression anymore. While you're in the process of pissing off your neighbor, you're losing half of your amplifier power. Klipsch was but a stepping stone on my way to audio nirvana, most of my Bi-Amped system is EAW, because they can handle whatever i throw at them. 550 watts Bass, 300 mid wattage through an Active crossover, you cannot stay in this cave past 22Wpc, and the fans in the amps never come on. Carvin XC3000 and going EAW was the best choice i ever made. Still have two new QSC amps sitting on the bench i never had a chance to hook up before the neighbor complaint. I dont need another 1000+ watts, i need another place to live, and im working on that. And im losing half my amp power? BS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) Don, you missed my point entirely. I wasn't talking about using the same outlet, where the sag would occur. I meant plugging in the microwave into the room outlet, and plugging the fan into another circuit outlet, perhaps in a different room. Unless the other outlet was on a different leg of the incoming AC power there would still be a voltage loss. If the other outlet was on the other leg, then your example would not be analogous to bi-wiring, but to passive bi-amping, i.e. completely different power sources. Edited September 16, 2014 by Don Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydro_pyro Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Still missing the point... In my example, They're still connected to the same breaker panel, but in one instance each appliance is using a dedicated wire run to the panel(like bi-wiring), versus sharing an outlet. My example assumes the losses are present at the outlet, but not measurable at the panel source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DizRotus Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Bi-Wire = buy wire 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Bi-Wire = buy wire You nailed it. Although using two different types of wires sounded interesting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Active Crossovers, Bi-Amped is the only way to go, took the better part of two years to achieve this, and took a month learning all the infinity adjustments. Still learning really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wstrickland1 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 OK, how about TRI wiring..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser SET say Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 I'm inclined to firmly believe Diz on this one Bi-Wire = Buy Wire however I bought the sucker punch purely on a vanity esthetic desire. I found as mentioned elsewhere herein the snazzy gold plated jumpers that came with my B&W's just did not cut it for me visually and once again I decided to go with a nice pair of 15' Signal Ultra Bi-Wires for what I still to this day consider a fair return on investment at a total layout of $125.00 (heck at the rate people are stealing copper today I bet these babies are worth their proverbial weight in copper). I just no likey the jumper look, I remembered studying up on Bi-Wire/Bi-Amp the first time I bought a pair of dual binding post speakers and finding out the only reason they had dual binding post was for dual or Bi-Amp configuration where you are absolutely driving your HF with one amp and the LF with another and you would think the Bi-Wire bell would have gone off as soon as you see your speaker company packing a nice set of jumpers in the box for you Regardless of the fact I like the Bi-Wire look for me, just glad I did not shell out thousands on mine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Minermark, I was addressing those who run the normal Klipsch stuff near their maximum output levels, not those running rigs from Hell. Some bi-amp because they want more power for the bottom, while others have to by default because they're running active filtering, which is where you're at. Right, you don't need to worry about power compression at 25 watts, but if that's all you need to agitate your neighbor, and you have a good passive network, you sure don't need two amplifiers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minermark Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Minermark, I was addressing those who run the normal Klipsch stuff near their maximum output levels, not those running rigs from Hell. Some bi-amp because they want more power for the bottom, while others have to by default because they're running active filtering, which is where you're at. Right, you don't need to worry about power compression at 25 watts, but if that's all you need to agitate your neighbor, and you have a good passive network, you sure don't need two amplifiers. Yes i see your advice to the many, i run two amps, one SS for Bass, one Tuber for the Mids/highs. And yes you are correct, current system agitates just fine, however the neighbor pinched me wile on day four of dialing in, there are still numerous adjustments that i wish to play with, im good for now i guess, but since start up iv never pumped more than 22Wpc with an Spl of 97, this thing is barley cracked open. I know you know your networks, like no one else i know, and i forget im running a Morffed system at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Power compression may be an issue in a big venue, but seriously, if it is an issue in a domestic listening room you may want to consider turning the volume down before your ears get ripped off your head. I agree, but if you've been paying any attention to the trend around here lately, less seem interested in the engaging experience that 2-channel listening is normally associated with, while more are seeing how bombastic they can get it. Power compression also relates to time. You don't have to have the volume jacked to heat up a voice coil. As the voice coil heats up, the volume control goes up in an attempt to offset the loss in volume. 3dB isn't very much from an audible perspective, but it is half of the amplifier's available power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cut-Throat Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 I'm going to surprise a few people here. I fully understand and use quality speaker cables however bi-wiring has not shown any benefit to me. It's not as dtel describes it's just two runs from the amp with the speaker strap removed, both drivers get the same signal just like they would with the strap in place. You basically double your cable cost for no improvement. A bigger change would be buying better cable than double the length of lessor quality cable. How can you tell what is "Better Cable". If I buy 100% OFC Cable, is there anything "Better"? By listening evaluations. So, do you buy every cable on the market and listen to them all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 I removed jumpers on the back of a pair of LaScala that had the networks modified for bi-wire. The difference in sound was slight, but audible. The mid and HF was wired through a twisted pair of silver-plated Teflon wire, the LF through 12ga Monster cable. The Teflon wire was obtained on the surplus market (apexjr.com) at a cost of about $5. It was well worth the $5 investment. The amplifier was an Adcom GFA 535, nothing special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Right, you don't need to worry about power compression at 25 watts, but if that's all you need to agitate your neighbor, and you have a good passive network, you sure don't need two amplifiers. That's right, two's not enough _ I need three Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russ69 Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 How can you tell what is "Better Cable". ... By listening evaluations. So, do you buy every cable on the market and listen to them all? Seems like it. I have evaluated about 2 dozen different, speaker cables and interconnects. And you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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