If dialogue clarity is the key criteria

[mustang guy]

I had a Paradigm center between two Heresy's once. It was that way for a long time, and one day I turned off the center speaker in the receiver which made a phantom center. It sounded an order of magnitude better.

 

After you get your receiver try phantom center before you invest in something. If there is a way you could demo a reference between the Fortes then turn it off in the receiver, you will know very quickly which you prefer.

[mustang guy]

 I just listed a pair of Forte II's on eBay, one has wax on the grill cover. I'd be willing to split the set if you're interested and ship one to you. I'm thinking $300 plus actual shipping cost? Figured I'd through it out there, PM me if you're interested, thanks.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Klipsch-Forte-II-Main-Stereo-Speakers-Wax-on-Grill-Cover-Work-Perfect-Local-PU-/321642144014?ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT

Some new grille cloth, and it would be good as new.  That must have been one huge bird!  

Edited January 15, 2015 by mustang guy

[twistedcrankcammer]

 

I don't see how any speaker is designed for center channel use minus the fact it's layed sideways. Which is a compromise. Have you tried any speaker on the left or right then scoot a forte in the middle just to try it out?

 

My first forray into DIY was a set of Zaph Audio 5.3 MTM and a Zaph Audio 5.3C speakers.  They all shared the same drivers, but the L/R had rear ports and were wider and were made to stand vertically.  The center had front ports, was designed to lay horizontally, and it had a completely different crossover and enclosure tuning to accent dialog. 

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/mtm-speaker-kits/zaph|audio-za5.3c-center-channel-single-with-cabinet/

 

Zaph had extensive and specific comments on the design of how the center was different from the MTM.  This was the basis for my thinking that center speakers had very specific and different requirements for a center speaker as opposed to mains.  The following quote is from the Zaph web site on the subject:

 

This is a version of the MTM design done specifically for horizontal center channel usage. It is also workable as a near boundary or near TV design. You will hear many people say that a MTM is just not good for horizontal usage, and for the most part they are right. The problem is that upright center channels will not work with the average home theater layout, unless you are lucky enough to have a front projector with a sound transparent screen. But for most of the HT world, we've got to squeeze the center channel between the TV and the furniture it's mounted in/on.

 

We can however optimize some of the typical MTM off axis response issues out of it, and give it a tonal balance that favors dialog. That is exactly what we've done here, and it's a completely different crossover rather than just an option based on the standard MTM. The crossover point has been dropped down a bit, though still not as low as the TM. There is very little baffle step compensation in this design, and the overall tonal balance favors a broad smooth rise through the upper midrange. The result of that can be seen in comparing the vertical polar responses between this and the standard MTM version. We've widened the listening window when this system is laid horizontal, and even when the response starts to droop due woofer center to center distance, a mild increase in the upper midrange minimizes the effect. The result is a horizontal MTM with a forward listening window of about 50 degrees from side to side. This is much more usable than the typical commercial center channel, which usually has serious lobing issues even 5 degrees off the horizontal axis. An MTM will never be as suitable as a W-T/M-W 3-way center, but here we've done our best with the format. Complaints of dialog audibility should be minimal.

 

http://zaphaudio.com/ZA5/

 

 

 

This is a bandage for using smaller speakers in a small space, which is exactly how you are using it....  The difference in ports is because of the difference in cross over points and / or woofers. They are trying to stretch the midrange on a two way design, while at the same time changing the off axis from the center channel, that is exactly what it says. While this may work for television and to some degree, movies, I'll wager it does not do as well with 5.1 music as the shift across all three channels is going to be more noticeable than an occasional helicopter taking off from right to left in a movie, as it just isn't happening as often, but I am sure it is there! If the OP has the room for Forte' x 3 and proper separation between the speakers, this combination will be tough to beat. With larger speakers sold for surround sound, the center channel is ALWAYS a compromise for size! I bought my mom an RF-7 setup and have an RC-7 and an original RF-7 that has only had the front motor board changed to put the squawker in the center of the direct radiators for Horizontal acquisition and can easily demonstrate the superiority of three identical speakers up front.

 

 

To the original poster; As far as dialogue goes, the Forte" II will be far superior to any of the reference series as well as more musical, this has been gone over in many discussions in the past. Take a good look at DTELs' post not only because he has 3 Forte' across the front, but because he also has them as all of his surrounds. I have all TSCMs, which are a Pro Klipschorn. To my thinking, as long as you have the room for it, I like all of my speakers to match. The reason for this is that on surround sound, the surround channels are much more subtle and quiet than the front three. I have heard many theatre in a box setups, including Klipsch where you almost cannot hear the surrounds, so by further loosing more surround by using a speaker that has less sensitivity or less output at a given power signal, the user only worsens the situation! Most every setup sold for surround sound is a compromise in size, cost, and marketability. To my own line of thinking, the smaller surrounds in a professional movie theatre are a compromise in space and cost, but with multi amping pro amps can more easily be boosted to preferred listening levels. If you are going with 3 Forte" across the front and do not have the space for Forte' surrounds, or the corners for  the rear firing Bass radiator, then Heresy II  would be a viable option for your surrounds. Also, have you considered how you are going to get that Bass out front on your center channel with all Forte" fronts. If you don't have the room, or the means to fabricate something, then 3 Heresy IIs and a properly crossed excellent sub may be a viable option!

 

Roger

[garyrc]

I had a phantom center channel that only stayed centered if I sat dead center myself.

 

For even slightly off center seating it's better to have real center channel, IMO.  I have a modified Belle Klipsch center coming through an acoustically transparent projection screen (Audyssey compensated), with Klipschorns FR and FL.  With an audience area 5 seats wide it's great from the center seat, good from the seats on either side on the center, and O.K. from the two seats on either end, but not strictly centered. 

Edited January 15, 2015 by Garyrc

[Heritage_Head]

I'll speak for the minority position, but with some qualifications.

 

I think your best advice would come from someone who has already done what you want to do.  Those above who have a 3 Forte setup would be in the best position to tell you what that sounds like.  I have never heard that set up.

 

In my setup, I have a couple of horn loaded 2-ways (10" woofs 12" horn) for L/R, and a dedicated MTM center with 7" woofs and a dome tweeter.  My center was designed to be a center and dialog is clear as a bell.  I am also in the minority because most recommend "timbre matching" L/C/R.  My L/C/R are certainly not timbre matched, but because all three speakers are very good quality I get excellent results. 

 

IMG_4274.JPG

 

I know this from listening to my setup in my living room.  About 95% of the time the sound is NOT distributed evenly across the L/C/R.  My AVR sends music and some stereo effects into L/R, and 90% of the dialog gets sent to the center speaker.  I also listen to mostly TV (50/50 stereo and 5.1), not movies, so that should also be taken into consideration.

 

My vote would be for a center channel which is designed to be center channel, due to the cross over being designed with dialog in mind.  In your case, I would suggest you try the Forte's first and if that doesn't give you the clarity of dialog you are looking for, you can sell your Forte's for about what you paid for them, and go with a center channel that was designed for that purpose.

 

In other words, I don't think you are going to go wrong either way.

Keep in mind a center channel that is built to fit under a tv in a small space isn't designed that way to sound better as a center speaker. Its designed that way to fit in that small space and is a very big compromise to what a good full range speaker can do. Im not saying that they can't sound good. Im just saying they are a compromise and if they can be avoied its recommended.  

Edited January 15, 2015 by Cinema_head

[twistedcrankcammer]

I had a phantom center channel that only stayed centered if I sat dead center myself.

 

For even slightly off center seating it's better to have real center channel, IMO.  I have a modified Belle Klipsch center coming through an acoustically transparent projection screen (Audyssey compensated), with Klipschorns FR and FL.  With an audience area 5 seats wide it's great from the center seat, good from the seats on either side on the center, and O.K. from the two seats on either end, but not strictly centered. 

 

 

Agreed, a phantom center is only a bandaid for not having a properly matched center!

[Heritage_Head]

Wow guys, lots of good insight, thks.   I do not have room for Forte's as rears or rear center speakers.  I plan to start with 3.0 and then if I get decent dialogue I will add smaller rears mounted up near the ceiling and a subwoofer somewhere.  WVU80 you are making a point similar to what I heard from a non-forum source and that is what motivated me to start this thread and ask about the choice with dialogue as the main criteria.  Most of you advise use of a Forte as a center and it some of you have that or something similar so you have heard the results.  While it is not impossible to go with the three Forte's and then change later it is a path I hope I don't have to take as I will build a couple of cabinets to go between the three Forte's for amps and equipment.  I guess if the dialogue is obviously not improved I can chage paths quickly but from what I am hearing I will likely be very impressed with the three Forte's.  An easier path would be to just get an RC-62 center, keep my current cabinet and then if I didn't like the results I could get another Forte later -- but I might always wonder what the 3 Forte's would have provided.  Life is tough, but isn't it wonderful we have these kinds of choices to make.  Thanks guys, even if the election is not unanimous.

Your going to love having 3 fortes. Having 3 of the same speaker (and a really good speaker on top of that like a forte) is the best option hands down. Its just most people can't fit something like that in their living room. Without it looking way out of place. Plus having to put the tv up higher to clear the floor standing speaker can be another problem. But if you got a spot for it don't think twice about anything else!

[edc]

To the original poster; As far as dialogue goes, the Forte" II will be far superior to any of the reference series as well as more musical, this has been gone over in many discussions in the past. Take a good look at DTELs' post not only because he has 3 Forte' across the front, but because he also has them as all of his surrounds. I have all TSCMs, which are a Pro Klipschorn. To my thinking, as long as you have the room for it, I like all of my speakers to match. The reason for this is that on surround sound, the surround channels are much more subtle and quiet than the front three. I have heard many theatre in a box setups, including Klipsch where you almost cannot hear the surrounds, so by further loosing more surround by using a speaker that has less sensitivity or less output at a given power signal, the user only worsens the situation! Most every setup sold for surround sound is a compromise in size, cost, and marketability. To my own line of thinking, the smaller surrounds in a professional movie theatre are a compromise in space and cost, but with multi amping pro amps can more easily be boosted to preferred listening levels. If you are going with 3 Forte" across the front and do not have the space for Forte' surrounds, or the corners for the rear firing Bass radiator, then Heresy II would be a viable option for your surrounds. Also, have you considered how you are going to get that Bass out front on your center channel with all Forte" fronts. If you don't have the room, or the means to fabricate something, then 3 Heresy IIs and a properly crossed excellent sub may be a viable option!

 

 

Again, thks to all for your time and guidance.  Roger, a couple of questions to make sure I understand what you are advising,  first I have made the decision to find another Forte to go with two I have and that will make up my R, ctr, and F speakers.  You specifically say Forte II,  are the Forte's close enough or is the II that much better.  I have plain Forte speakers but I can focus my search on adding two Forte II's if it is that important.  Otherwise I will get whatever I can find Forte or Forte II.   And I do not understand what you mean about how I am "going to get hat Bass out front on your center channel with all Forte fronts" followed by the comment on using 3 Heresy II's etc. etc.  Can you please explain this to me, I thought that the 3 Forte's would provide decent bass and adding the subwoofer would be the next step along with the surrounds if and when I wanted to move on from the 3.0 config.  I think I am missing something here.  Also if I add surrounds (likely) to the 3 Forte front, it will be something smaller than a Heresy II that I can mount in an approx. 1 foot deep soffit area I have around the ceiling of the room. I haven't even started figuring that out yet. The 70" TV/monitor and the Sony ZA-3000ES amp should be here next week and I can start putting things together while I try to complete the Forte procurement.  Thanks again for the help.

[derrickdj1]

Three matching speaker is being recommended. This topic seems to be related to timber matching more than dialogue clarity.  Clarity is not a problem with Reference systems.  Dialogue clarity is more of a setup problem and occurs in many system.  The room may also be a factor.  When it comes to HT, some of  us want three matching front speaker and other are fine with a different combo.  Only you know what is right for yourself and what type of signature look you want for the system.

Edited January 16, 2015 by derrickdj1

[Scrappydue]

To the original poster; As far as dialogue goes, the Forte" II will be far superior to any of the reference series as well as more musical, this has been gone over in many discussions in the past. Take a good look at DTELs' post not only because he has 3 Forte' across the front, but because he also has them as all of his surrounds. I have all TSCMs, which are a Pro Klipschorn. To my thinking, as long as you have the room for it, I like all of my speakers to match. The reason for this is that on surround sound, the surround channels are much more subtle and quiet than the front three. I have heard many theatre in a box setups, including Klipsch where you almost cannot hear the surrounds, so by further loosing more surround by using a speaker that has less sensitivity or less output at a given power signal, the user only worsens the situation! Most every setup sold for surround sound is a compromise in size, cost, and marketability. To my own line of thinking, the smaller surrounds in a professional movie theatre are a compromise in space and cost, but with multi amping pro amps can more easily be boosted to preferred listening levels. If you are going with 3 Forte" across the front and do not have the space for Forte' surrounds, or the corners for the rear firing Bass radiator, then Heresy II would be a viable option for your surrounds. Also, have you considered how you are going to get that Bass out front on your center channel with all Forte" fronts. If you don't have the room, or the means to fabricate something, then 3 Heresy IIs and a properly crossed excellent sub may be a viable option!

Again, thks to all for your time and guidance. Roger, a couple of questions to make sure I understand what you are advising, first I have made the decision to find another Forte to go with two I have and that will make up my R, ctr, and F speakers. You specifically say Forte II, are the Forte's close enough or is the II that much better. I have plain Forte speakers but I can focus my search on adding two Forte II's if it is that important. Otherwise I will get whatever I can find Forte or Forte II. And I do not understand what you mean about how I am "going to get hat Bass out front on your center channel with all Forte fronts" followed by the comment on using 3 Heresy II's etc. etc. Can you please explain this to me, I thought that the 3 Forte's would provide decent bass and adding the subwoofer would be the next step along with the surrounds if and when I wanted to move on from the 3.0 config. I think I am missing something here. Also if I add surrounds (likely) to the 3 Forte front, it will be something smaller than a Heresy II that I can mount in an approx. 1 foot deep soffit area I have around the ceiling of the room. I haven't even started figuring that out yet. The 70" TV/monitor and the Sony ZA-3000ES amp should be here next week and I can start putting things together while I try to complete the Forte procurement. Thanks again for the help.

im guessing he meant since it has a bass radiator you gotta have it out from the wall. If you were building some sort of entertainment center for the center to sit inside of you may be better off with three heresy and a sub instead. Does that clear it up a little ?

[dtel]

You specifically say Forte II, are the Forte's close enough or is the II that much better.

 

Me personally, I would say an original forte would be close enough to not hear a difference.  

 

I wouldn't completely close in either model on the back side, it is a passive radiator on the back which could possibly echo sounds if completely close in, as in a back of a cabinet.

 

Your going to think this is crazy but I run all 6 of the fortes as small on the receiver and let the sub do the bass. For years I didn't and people here kept telling me to try it. Well one day I did and it sounded better, the bass and midrange was cleaner and the overall sound was better. All I can think is instead of 6 places in the room trying to reproduce real bass it's now one, also the bass on the fortes somewhat become midbass which make it sound much better and even takes the pressure off the receiver and this makes an overall better sound. It's easy to switch back and forth to try yourself, go with ever sounds best, which for me and this room was set to small.

 

It just sounds better set to small, the room is  24' wide and 18' deep and completely open to a larger area (no rear wall).

 

This also makes the passive radiator on the rear of each speaker work much less which can help with rear sound reflections especially in not exactly optimum speaker positions. 

[edc]

I now own 4 Forte's (not II's). My room is large and not perfectly rectangular. It is 20+ feet wide and about 37' long including a dining area. On one end next to a fireplace there is about a 9' wall at a slight angle towards the

center of the room, we sit 10 to 16 feet from this wall for viewing TV/movies. I will have the speakers on this wall, they will not be in a cabinet. I will have the end speakers about 6' apart on centers, with the center between them. They will be approx. 12" from the wall sitting on the floor. I will build two component cabinets approx. 22" wide to sit between the three speakers. I will experiment with setup and testing in an initial 3.0 configuration. I have never had a surround sound system or amp before so I have a lot to learn with setup and trial and error on the types of decisions you are discussing. These are Klipsch Forte's so they will sound good to great especially when I play my old

rock and roll tunes-- question is if I will be able to hear dialogue the way they seem to mix them today. If not I will try a small center with two forte's, if that doesn't work I will assume the issue is my hearing and I will read more. This is going to fun and the stuff starts arriving next week. Thanks again for all of your time and guidance. Hopefully I will soon have a single Forte on the market. Ed

[edc]

Your going to think this is crazy but I run all 6 of the fortes as small on the receiver and let the sub do the bass. For years I didn't and people here kept telling me to try it. Well one day I did and it sounded better, the bass and midrange was cleaner and the overall sound was better. All I can think is instead of 6 places in the room trying to reproduce real bass it's now one, also the bass on the fortes somewhat become midbass which make it sound much better and even takes the pressure off the receiver and this makes an overall better sound. It's easy to switch back and forth to try yourself, go with ever sounds best, which for me and this room was set to small.

 

It just sounds better set to small, the room is  24' wide and 18' deep and completely open to a larger area (no rear wall).

 

Interesting, I was not aware the setup let you define a speaker as small or large. It might be interesting in my setup to see if there is any dialogue difference by setting the center Forte as small vs large. Ed

[wvu80]

Do you have your new AVR yet?  I'm assuming it will have room correction of some sort.  The defacto program is Audyssey, but others like Yamaha and Pioneer have their own versions.

 

The Audyssey in my Onk 717 "polls" every speaker I have hooked up and then it decides what speakers are "large" or "small."  Some systems don't use that terminology.  In every case, the user can manually override the system.

 

For instance if I use a sub, my mains are automatically set to Small by Audyssey.  If I want more overall bass in the room, I will turn the sub off, and Audyssey will automatically set my mains to Large.  I can then manually turn the sub back on for even more bass.

 

Play with the room correction system on your AVR.  Just know when you override your room correction s/w, it can be complicated!

[billybobg]

I don't see how any speaker is designed for center channel use minus the fact it's layed sideways.

 

 

Well....Depends who does the design.    I had considered laying a stock lascala on it's side or an academy.  bobdog talked me out of the academy and other inputs from this forum talked me out of the sleeping lascala. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by billybobg

[edc]

 

I don't see how any speaker is designed for center channel use minus the fact it's layed sideways.

 

 

Well....Depends who does the design.    I had considered laying a stock lascala on it's side or an academy.  bobdog talked me out of the academy and other inputs from this forum talked me out of the sleeping lascala. 

 

 

Well I do not know anything about speaker design however after spending some time of this forum I think I should get a book and learn a little, however, I would think a center channel could by design be optimized for voice frequencies via speaker selection, crossover freq, size etc. and not be compromised by trying to achieve the full 20-20KHz audio spectrum.  Therefore if most dialogue goes to this voice optimized speaker it should work better.   This is my conclusion after talking to many and I think even the opinion of a few on this forum. But, please note, most of you strongly suggested I add another Forte as my center speaker so I am trying that first.  I bought two more Forte's but have not picked them up yet.  The 70" TV is installed and I love it.  The Sony 3000ES amp is still in the box but will be in soon.  I am very anxious to get the speakers and hear the results in my living room with my ears (which unfortunately are not as good as my speakers or my amp, probably due to USAF jet engines many moons ago).

[tromprof]

As many have said timbre matching is most important. There is no special tuning, optimizing, or compromises involved. Signal below 50 HZ maybe less important than LR.  If you have good LR speakers and match that, you will have clarity in the middle. I have 2 muti channel setups. A KG4 center between  KG4 LR, and my basement QP system. In both cases dialog is clear, and when a character "moves" to the side the voice remains the same.  My very first attempt at surround had an RC7 between Fortes. Didn't work out well even though all speakers were good.

 

QP center