Anybody here on the Mars manifest?

[Mallette]

It's true that we don't know how many people the Earth will support, but it's certainly more than 7B. I think there are plenty of destructive organisms that will hold populations down. At various times, the global population has dipped very close to ZERO. That will probably happen again.

 

So, there is science in there?  "...we don't know..."  "I think..."  ''...probably happen..."

 

"There is a finite supply of resources and infinite demand..." will not be debated by any scientist.

 

Dave

[Mallette]

Gravity can be explained by any scientist. In fact, it can be explained by most 7th grade science students.

 

Probably the silliest post you've ever made...

 

Dave

[jimjimbo]

Thought and inspiration won't fix those things. 

 

Thought and inspiration leads to effort....if you don't put forth the effort, or don't think it's worthwhile, you are truly lost.

 

By the way, your reality is not the same as my reality.

[babadono]

 

OK help me out with this--- the colonizers of the New World knew where they were going had water and air probably, correct?

 

Though I presume that is a joke, I'll respond anyway.  Mars is rotten with both, easily accessible.  So is the moon, in the sense we know there are boatloads of water there and if you have water, you have air.  Hardly new technology.

 

Dave

 

No joke here. If water and air are so available on Mars why is there no life there? You do not need to answer me if you don't want. i do not want to enter a debate, i am not qualified to debate this. My beliefs about life and yours are different.

[Paducah Home Theater]

What kinds of things don't we know about that will affect colonizing Mars?

[Jim]

One of my favorite shows. They also have some great T-Shirts with him on them with different sayings.

[oldenough]

I would love to be a part of that adventure....The whole idea brings up some interesting questions, like...do the colonists claim sovereignty of the "new world"? In their own right or that of the "motherland" ? Would off-spring be Martians?...

Edited February 19, 2015 by oldenough

[thebes]

I'm with Dave.  Colonization of the solar system is a great idea, not only for resources, but as a stepping stone to the stars.  Evolution has habit of destroying species that can't adapt and expand.

 

Oh, did I tell you that I sent my dear Alice straight to the moon onetime?

[derrickdj1]

Man will go to Mars.  People doubted that man could fly, make laser, space crafts, build massive skyscrapers, test tube babies, workable artificial limbs and most other things until it was done.  The world population is exploding and man will be on the prescibus and faced with the challenge for survival.

 

Get the private sector involved and it will happen sooner because there will be monetary dreams driving exploration and colonization.

Edited February 19, 2015 by derrickdj1

[derrickdj1]

Resources are not finite and man has fought most wars over someone else's resources.  That will happen more and more in the future.  Don't get me wrong, I am not doom and gloom on man's future: man will have some major obstacles to over come.

[CECAA850]

One girl is already after the honor of birthing the first Martian. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2958312/I-want-BABY-Mars-says-British-candidate-one-way-space-mission-TV-company-reveals-plans-Big-Brother-style-beamed-red-planet.html

 

 

That's exactly what we need.  Interstellar reality shows.

[Paducah Home Theater]

I don't understand wanting to do it other than to gain some fame or to satisfy some kind of sci fi fantasy. I mean, you're probably not coming back, this isn't vacation. As far as I know Mars is probably horribly boring. So you go up there and what, build a building and sit in it? For what? They are going to be dependent on a steady flow of supplies being shipped from earth, it's not like they can be dumped there and learn how to survive off the land.

[CECAA850]

"Big Brother on Mars" sounds no worse than "Hillbilly Handfishing" or "Swamp Dudes."

 

My point exactly.

[Jim]

I don't understand wanting to do it other than to gain some fame or to satisfy some kind of sci fi fantasy. I mean, you're probably not coming back, this isn't vacation. As far as I know Mars is probably horribly boring. So you go up there and what, build a building and sit in it? For what? They are going to be dependent on a steady flow of supplies being shipped from earth, it's not like they can be dumped there and learn how to survive off the land.

 

 

Actually they could grow their own foods and ecosystem. I'm sure they are going to be trained in how to do many things.

 

Once they are set up in a "makeshift greenhouse" they will be able to make pretty much anything they need. Water,oxygen alone will come from wastes from hydrogen and plants being used.

 

I'm sure they will also have to get some building supplies sent up with more people as they expand the colony. It will take a special breed to be able to live there and grow, but they should be able to do it. I'd say once they settle within 100 years it can be as large as some cities here,maybe 50-60,000 people.I also think there won't be any "ouside" activities unless scientific activities.

[Mallette]

Well, nice to inspire some serious debate, though I am surprised at the vehemence of opposition to human exploration and expansion into the solar system.  Might have expected some "meh," but outright hostility and ridicule of the idea makes me think we've deteriorated as a species even more than I feared.

 

Mark, you and I go at it all the time and it's fun.  We also empty the place.  We've been down this particular road before in another venue so I am just going to disengage from the one on one and make a few statements of belief.  A couple of hours of nitrous (just got home from a dental appointment) really allows one serious off world time to think, donchaknow.

 

First, as to "fixing" the earth.  I am an ULTRA environmentalist.  If you love the planet just one of the goals needs to be restoration of the American prairie to it's pre-European rape.  That means replacing those endless acres of now chemical fertilizer dependent grain fields with 10 to 14 million buffalo.  That will take a while, and we have the knowledge and technology to gradually make it happen without decreasing our food supply.  Population isn't a major issue as most of it is pretty minimal anyway.  Buffalo didn't run willy nilly but followed established routes, some of which are still quite visible in north Texas and elsewhere.  After some decades the prairie grasses would be reestablished and the natural fertilizer begin to restore the vast open wound there now.  If that sounds like a lot, it really isn't.  Current US beef cattle population is around 90 million. 

 

Restoring the forests is more problematic, but a beginning could be made if people REALLY want a more verdant earth on the road to recovery. 

 

All depends on getting most of our natural resources from space and seriously solving the environmental and material cost of energy.  The US, and other countries, should spend massive amounts of money on new fission plants to eliminate the carbon dioxide now spewed in ever increasing amounts by fossil fuel plants, as well as reduce the death and injury toll from those plants which exceeds the total deaths from all reactor incidents ever each year.   No matter what you believe about fission plants, the technology is here, now, clean, safe and the only proven way to eliminate the greatest single source of carbon emissions. 

 

The world should also work together to focus our best minds on fusion and solar.  Solar is nearing being competitive already and with a big push could handle a major portion of our energy needs.  Fusion remains at a crawl as total money spent on it is miniscule.  The problem IS soluble and holds the promise of unlimited power so cost effective as to be charged simply at a set rate per user type...too cheap to meter.  If there is any truth at all in the Lockheed fusion announcement...and they have no record of hyperbole so far...that device promises a power source that would make the solar system accessible at will on a massive scale. 

 

There are always giggles about the space elevator...but you won't find any scientist who doesn't fully concur it's theoretically feasible and that the only holdup is a material for the wire strong enough.  Many believe graphene is more than adequate and the technology to produce that incredible material is rapidly improving. 

 

The above is solid science.  The rest are beliefs.

 

I believe in the indomitable spirit of the human mind to reach out and explore.

 

I believe we have a will to survive.

 

I believe this planet is simply our womb and we are reaching full term.

 

I believe that, if we don't fully comprehend the speed we are destroying the remainder of our womb and consuming its resources we will not survive. 

 

Rather than say "believe," I'll say I fear we are too complacent and may not act quickly enough to prevent worldwide devastation from failure to act soon enough to secure the resources and alternative living space we will need sooner than most believe.

 

I am not a dreamer.  I am a realist.  The world is devastated and the rape continues of the tiny remnant that is left.  When I read of what the "New World" was like when Europeans arrived it is like another planet altogether.  In only two centuries we have managed to undo millions of years of natural balance and development.  Any "conservationist" who thinks we can reverse that to any degree without some or all of the conditions I've specified above is the dreamer.

 

This is NOT a drill.

 

Anyway, today is a fine day in Houston, warm and bright with the promise of spring.  As the Louis XV famously said "It will survive my time, after me, the deluge."  Problem is I have a son, and I care about what happens in HIS lifetime and am trying to prepare him to be a positive force for changing attitudes and advancing the human condition.

 

Dave

[Paducah Home Theater]

Well, nice to inspire some serious debate, though I am surprised at the vehemence of opposition to human exploration and expansion into the solar system.  Might have expected some "meh," but outright hostility and ridicule of the idea makes me think we've deteriorated as a species even more than I feared.

The only thing I fully ridicule is the chick who wants to have a baby on Mars. That's insane. The baby doesn't get to pick. Imagine growing up then finally realizing what your crazy mom did to you. That goes well beyond your typical problems that come up during fits of teenage angst. That's straight up child abuse in today's world.

 

The world is devastated and the rape continues of the tiny remnant that is left.

The second idea I kinda ridicule is this idea, that we are going because this earth is trashed. Makes no sense. Fix this one if that's what you're worried about. We're just going to trash Mars too if we inhabit the place, except its environment isn't nearly as nice as earth's worst day that we could ever dream about. Survival of the species due to fear of an asteroid, yeah, go for it. Survival of the species because all the other meanie heads keep damaging the environment? I don't see it.

Edited February 19, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters

[Jim]

Well, nice to inspire some serious debate, though I am surprised at the vehemence of opposition to human exploration and expansion into the solar system.  Might have expected some "meh," but outright hostility and ridicule of the idea makes me think we've deteriorated as a species even more than I feared.

 

Mark, you and I go at it all the time and it's fun.  We also empty the place.  We've been down this particular road before in another venue so I am just going to disengage from the one on one and make a few statements of belief.  A couple of hours of nitrous (just got home from a dental appointment) really allows one serious off world time to think, donchaknow.

 

First, as to "fixing" the earth.  I am an ULTRA environmentalist.  If you love the planet just one of the goals needs to be restoration of the American prairie to it's pre-European rape.  That means replacing those endless acres of now chemical fertilizer dependent grain fields with 10 to 14 million buffalo.  That will take a while, and we have the knowledge and technology to gradually make it happen without decreasing our food supply.  Population isn't a major issue as most of it is pretty minimal anyway.  Buffalo didn't run willy nilly but followed established routes, some of which are still quite visible in north Texas and elsewhere.  After some decades the prairie grasses would be reestablished and the natural fertilizer begin to restore the vast open wound there now.  If that sounds like a lot, it really isn't.  Current US beef cattle population is around 90 million. 

 

Restoring the forests is more problematic, but a beginning could be made if people REALLY want a more verdant earth on the road to recovery. 

 

All depends on getting most of our natural resources from space and seriously solving the environmental and material cost of energy.  The US, and other countries, should spend massive amounts of money on new fission plants to eliminate the carbon dioxide now spewed in ever increasing amounts by fossil fuel plants, as well as reduce the death and injury toll from those plants which exceeds the total deaths from all reactor incidents ever each year.   No matter what you believe about fission plants, the technology is here, now, clean, safe and the only proven way to eliminate the greatest single source of carbon emissions. 

 

The world should also work together to focus our best minds on fusion and solar.  Solar is nearing being competitive already and with a big push could handle a major portion of our energy needs.  Fusion remains at a crawl as total money spent on it is miniscule.  The problem IS soluble and holds the promise of unlimited power so cost effective as to be charged simply at a set rate per user type...too cheap to meter.  If there is any truth at all in the Lockheed fusion announcement...and they have no record of hyperbole so far...that device promises a power source that would make the solar system accessible at will on a massive scale. 

 

There are always giggles about the space elevator...but you won't find any scientist who doesn't fully concur it's theoretically feasible and that the only holdup is a material for the wire strong enough.  Many believe graphene is more than adequate and the technology to produce that incredible material is rapidly improving. 

 

The above is solid science.  The rest are beliefs.

 

I believe in the indomitable spirit of the human mind to reach out and explore.

 

I believe we have a will to survive.

 

I believe this planet is simply our womb and we are reaching full term.

 

I believe that, if we don't fully comprehend the speed we are destroying the remainder of our womb and consuming its resources we will not survive. 

 

Rather than say "believe," I'll say I fear we are too complacent and may not act quickly enough to prevent worldwide devastation from failure to act soon enough to secure the resources and alternative living space we will need sooner than most believe.

 

I am not a dreamer.  I am a realist.  The world is devastated and the rape continues of the tiny remnant that is left.  When I read of what the "New World" was like when Europeans arrived it is like another planet altogether.  In only two centuries we have managed to undo millions of years of natural balance and development.  Any "conservationist" who thinks we can reverse that to any degree without some or all of the conditions I've specified above is the dreamer.

 

This is NOT a drill.

 

Anyway, today is a fine day in Houston, warm and bright with the promise of spring.  As the Louis XV famously said "It will survive my time, after me, the deluge."  Problem is I have a son, and I care about what happens in HIS lifetime and am trying to prepare him to be a positive force for changing attitudes and advancing the human condition.

 

Dave

 

 

Dave,

 

I think if we took cue from Europe and countries like Germany, Switzerland and a few others big strides would have been made already. Living rooves alone, and Germany will be at about 80% soloar if I'm not mistaken within the next 20 years or less. But government and the hands that feed them haven't destroyed enough yet to scrape every last $ they can from the earth.

[Jim]

We're just going to trash Mars too if we inhabit the place

 

I think we are and I think that because look at what we do to each other. We are probabaly the cochroaches of the galaxy when looked at from other species of beings. Yes I do believe there are others out there besides us.

[Mallette]

That's insane. The baby doesn't get to pick

 

And the one born in Somalia does? 

 

A child's home is with it's parents, and my personal belief is that child would be a Martian and have no interest in any more than some sightseeing on earth and returning home.  I recall visiting with a young Navajo man on a road in a desolate area of Arizona that wasn't much different than some of the Martian landscapes other than breathable air.  His summation:  "I went to the Chicago Conservatory but came home.  There wasn't anything there." 

 

Very profound.  Home is were you are born and raised. 

 

As to your second comment the reason is not just because the place is trashed.  It's because we cannot survive once the rations are gone and we can see that limit approaching already in a number of areas.  Those rare earths aren't optional, and they are only one thing.  As to "trashing" Mars, you seem to assume we've learned nothing.  If true, I am with you.  We have no right or reason to survive if we cannot learn to live in environmentally sound ways. 

 

Dave

[Mallette]

Let's branch a bit and really get those of limited imagine rolling in the floor.

 

To suggest humankind can trash the Milky Way, much less the universe, is the height of arrogance and silliness.  But we already have all the technology to build a multi-generational starship and lack only the power source...for which fusion is ideal.  The British Interplanetary Society did the basic design work other that propulsion over half a century ago.  Living conditions would be better than Manhattan or most urban dwellings and, as mentioned with the Martian baby above, those born there would be happy as clams in their home. 

 

Some engine designs, like the Ad Astra Variable Specific Impulse Magnetoplasma Rocket (VASIMR) whose headquarters is about 10 minutes from my home, and the Shawyer emdrive, recently validated by NASA as working, though they didn't have a clue as to how, need only a power source like a fusion reactor to make them reach speeds the BIP folks would never have imagined possibly even to the point that a young starfarer might live to see a new world around another star if it's in the 20 to 40 light year range.  In any event, these ships could travel as far and as long as necessary to find a suitable world.

 

At the current rate of increase in our ability to analyze the "Goldilocks" zone planets that are reasonably near earth they may well have full knowledge their destination is completely habitable.  OTOH, as opposed Mars, we may find somebody already there.  Both that potential, and whether we react better than we did in the new world, are fascinating prospects.

 

Dave

Edited February 19, 2015 by Mallette