Paducah Home Theater Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) Wondering if there is a surefire way to keep voices out of subwoofers. I like my subs at least 6 db hot, mains crossed over low, subs set to LFE+MAIN, and up until last night LFE was crossed over at 120 hz which is where scrappy put it a couple weeks ago, but, this whole combination seems to mess up other things, especially low male voices. However, I was playing around with it last night. Ran Audessey, it put the RF-7ii's at full range, RC-64ii center crossed over at 40, RS-62ii surrounds at 60, I set the subs to LFE only, crossed over as low as possible at 80 hz, subs were flat, no boost anywhere, Dynamic EQ was turned off. Put in Colombiana, watched the scene below, which is telling because there is a low male voice with nothing else at all going on, the scene is very quiet otherwise. It wasn't nearly as bad, but, why in the hell is this dude's voice still coming through the subs a little? The low mumbling a little after 44 seconds in will vibrate my subs a bit and makes the center sound boomy and muddy sometimes, now not nearly as much, but boost the subs and it definitely will. But still, why is this dude's voice considered LFE? Is there no way to completely separate thumps vs. voices? Edited March 4, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 A male voice can go down to 85Hz. Combine that with the fact that your crossover is not a brick wall and you may get a little bleed through from your subs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) Your crossover is bleeding over into the high ranges. Can you steepen the slope 24db vs. 12db? 120Hz is too high for a subwoofer, that is the mid-bass range. You should not be hearing anything in the vocal range. What do you have the crossover dial set to on the back of the sub assuming that it has one? Edited March 4, 2015 by Frzninvt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Voice thru the sub is a fairly common problem and running the sub hot can be a factor. Male voice can go down to around 60 Hz. Using 80 Hz, means that things are cut down 3-6 db depending of the slop being used for the sub. Try putting the XO on the sub also at 80 Hz. This will help filter the higher frequencies. I play around with bass boost for demo but, rarely use it while watching a movie. Having a flatter FR will elevate the low bass in many cases to match a subs more natural good midrange performance 40-80 Hz. With the low end elevated there will be less need to do the bass boost. Uping the trim is a global increase in the bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) A male voice can go down to 85Hz. Combine that with the fact that your crossover is not a brick wall and you may get a little bleed through from your subs. If I had it set on LFE+mains I could understand this, but why are voices recorded in the LFE channel? That's what I don't get. I've been under the impression that the LFE channel was dedicated to actual thumps and whatnot. If I set the subs to LFE only, why is it still playing voices? I mean why are voices even making its way to the LFE channel on the disc as it seems to be doing? Edited March 4, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) Your crossover is bleeding over into the high ranges. Can you steepen the slope 24db vs. 12db? 120Hz is too high for a subwoofer, that is the mid-bass range. You should not be hearing anything in the vocal range. His LFE is at 120 Hz. That is a dedicated channel and voices are not in that ch. The LFE ch can be turned down to 80 Hz without loosing hardly any content in that ch. Remeber, the sub is a playback device=LFE + redirected bass. it can playback one or the other or both. Sometime having the sub driver firing into the wall will help filter the higher frequencies and harmonics. Edited March 4, 2015 by derrickdj1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) That is a dedicated channel and voices are not in that ch. That's what I thought but this scene will vibrate my subs a little even when set to LFE only. I haven't had time to test other movies. Edited March 4, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 That is the point, it is a playback device and setting the LFE ch is indedepent of the the subs job to playback bass. There is no on or off thing for the bass. Try turning the subs toward the wall or setting the sub xo to 80 Hz on the sub. We normaly turn the sub XO all the way up or off. That rule is not always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) That is the point, it is a playback device and setting the LFE ch is indedepent of the the subs job to playback bass. This part is confusing me. I can see this if you have it set on LFE+MAIN especially if you have it set up high. Frequencies going to the mains get too low and it gets sent to the subs instead of the mains, and this is in addition to actually playing the LFE channel, I get that. However, when you set it to LFE only though and not LFE+MAIN, shouldn't it refrain from doing this and only play the LFE channel like you just told it to? Edited March 4, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Many receivers redirect everything below the individual speakers crossover point to the subs even when on LFE only. Maybe it's getting content from your center and surrounds and "+ MAINS" only refers to LF and RF. You need to dig into your owners manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) It is a little complicated seeing where all these frequencies go. Check out this diagram with emphasis on the LFE ch and redirected bass. This was taken from: http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817 Different avr's may do things slightly different but, this diagram at least gives a visual pic of what is happening. Set speaker to large will engage a Quasi bass management scheme but, still work. I feel using a global XO is easy/best. This thing in set different XO's for different speakers is feel good thing for the most part, lol. Note the LFE ch all alone at the bottom. Edited March 4, 2015 by derrickdj1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschsonian Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Play some of this mans albums he will get those subs moving too 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) A couple of things. I ran the Youtube blurb you included (which is always helpful IMO). I listened over my computer where I have my CF-4's so close to my LP they are almost headphones (I am working on them). I couldn't hear a darn thing the guy was saying! I heard a lot of male voice out of the 12" woofer, and I am not running a sub, just 2.0. I do have a 12" Klipsch RW-12d sub but in my 5.1 setup Audyssey sets it to -5, and I'm sure your subs are much better than my single sub. It may seem like the cross over to your subs are the problem, but I wonder since you run your subs so hot, if it makes any sense to RAISE the XO on your center? Most of the male voice will come from that nice RC-63ii center which you have set at 40 (I bet Audyssey would put it there too). I suggest as an experiment, raise the center XO to 60, then later try 80 and see if the male voice changes and becomes more clear. I bet it will. I think that because on my system, I never "hear" the sub. With the sub engaged I hear stronger bass coming from the drivers in my L/R/C because the sub reinforces those lower frequencies. When I am changing Audyssey settings to my ears, I normalize my system to make male and female voice sound the most clear. Everything else sounds good after that, and understand, I am not a bass head. Edited March 4, 2015 by wvu80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Perhaps you're not listening to enough Marie Osmond? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I like the ideal of setting the XO in the avr higher. No magic setting lowest XO for the L/R/ and Center speaker. I never quit understand why people like trying to set all the speakers to the lowest XO setting. There is no benefit IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I want to go back a step because I'm relatively new to this HT stuff and know very little about it.. Please correct any statement or assumption I make in the following. When the "sound guys" mix a 5.1 or 7.1 soundtrack, they put whatever they want on the ".1" channel. It's usually Low freq stuff. But if they put everything below say 100Hz or a portion of everything below 100Hz in that channel then it is going to come out of the subwoofer out on your AVR. Now you can filter it at the AVR and in most cases also at the sub. On most AVRs you can choose to have the sub out be just this ".1" signal(LFE) or it can also add in the frequencies that you cut from your other speakers(LFE+Main). Some people have elaborate filtering, limiting,delay and other things set on their sub amps as well. But if the low frequencies of the male voice are in the ".1" channel from the source it will be hard to (impossible) remove it from your sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 The LFE channel is dedicated and frequency limited to 120 Hz and below. I doubt seriously they'd add part of a male voice to the dedicated LFE channel. He's most likely getting information from below the crossover of one of the other channels (most likely center). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 (edited) I like the ideal of setting the XO in the avr higher. No magic setting lowest XO for the L/R/ and Center speaker. I never quit understand why people like trying to set all the speakers to the lowest XO setting. There is no benefit IMHO. I've played around with higher frequencies and I don't like it as much for rock concert blu rays. Floor toms and male voices sound better if it comes through my RF-7ii's in my opinion. It is more lively and blends better. Edited March 4, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 Wait a second. If you can't have voices in the sub then you won't get to enjoy Jabba the Hutt's unique laugh. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) I like the ideal of setting the XO in the avr higher. No magic setting lowest XO for the L/R/ and Center speaker. I never quit understand why people like trying to set all the speakers to the lowest XO setting. There is no benefit IMHO.I've played around with higher frequencies and I don't like it as much for rock concert blu rays. Floor toms and male voices sound better if it comes through my RF-7ii's in my opinion. It is more lively and blends better.so then just have a setting for Blu Ray concerts and a setting for movies. I think it's something you have setup weird cause I've never noticed my subs playing vocals. Unless it's Optimus prime or something. Did you try playing it with all speaker crossed at 80 hz and then unplugging all your speakers? So just subs are playing Edited March 5, 2015 by Scrappydue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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