Deang Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 (edited) http://aeaaudio.com/legacy-page/ I don't see anything unusual about removing transformers as part of a detailed restoration process. Also, leads are not cloth, they are covered in cloth. While some original tubes are perfectly fine, just as many need to be replaced. If they bought and paid for the unit, the tubes belong to them. With these things in mind, why the veiled accusation that they are robbing the tubes. I used to use detergent to clean the old pots from the Dahlquist DQ-10's I used to restore. It works good. I also used steel wool and Dawn to clean my Scott 299, which ended up looking so nice that Craig and Kelly Holstein (original web designer) asked for pictures so they could be used for the website -- the 299 on the homepage is/was mine. What's wrong with Orange Drops, which seem to be the capacitor of choice by many for these vintage rebuilds - and just because a capacitor is small doesn't mean it doesn't have the proper voltage rating (I know you know this). Since when is a power supply "upgrade" a normal part of a restoration process. People have different approaches to these things. The finished product not only looks amazing, but apparently works pretty good too. I can understand maybe questioning some things, but the harsh criticism seems out of place, and atypical of you. Edited May 4, 2015 by Crankysoldermeister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 (edited) Hey Marty AEA Audio has done excellent work here from what I see. By the way I loved my Scott 222C with Orange Drops.....!!! Miketn Edited April 30, 2015 by mikebse2a3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarheel Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Very nice documentation! I cringed when I read the chassis was dunked in water.....but you certainly know better than I. Would love to see my vintage HK receiver after your service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 No Dean, you know I'm a shill for nobody. I read over his post and did not like what I saw, and soaking an amp seems oddball to me. I also think those who pop an amp into the oven are nuts too. And those who restore amps, but only do partial restoration are just guaranteeing problems down the road. Does that make me a shill? Take a look at this company's service list. Why go through all the trouble to do all this cosmetic bling, do some minor repairs, according to the customers perceived needs, and then return them an amp that is neither safe nor restored. But wait, say they tell you you should bite the bullet and go for the full monty restoration. Guess what? It will cost $2700 smackers to restore a Scott 299. That's twenty seven ducats on an amp that cost three bills new, and they'll even throw in some magic triode mod as part of the package. I'm implying nothing by asking about the tubes. I've never seen a Scott in any picture with Russian tubes and asked a question. Duh, yes I know tubes wear out but small signal tubes are usually the last to go. So are they pulling the old ones cause they think the Russian ones are better? Are they worn out? Are they "re-purposing" the them. It's not like we haven't seen repair guys on this very same forum pull that trick before. Now if Mike is saying this is a good restoration then I'm more than inclined to believe him, simply because he knows more about this stuff then I will in about a million years or so. But it was Mike who taught me that when you were going through an amp, you should, if possible beef up the power supply. Hence my problem with a rebuild that can easily do it, but doesn't. And yes, I have been knowmto use orange drops too. However, I'm not charging anybody for my work and I'm not implying that orange drops are modern audiophile caps like they do on their website.. I'm sorry guys, but barring any response from this company, why should I modify my view? Aren't we allowed to ask questions here anymore? And another thing. Can you really believe this company'spost is nothing more than marketing? To me it's a pretty thinly veiled pitch for business, and if I felt more comfortable with what I perceive they are doing, I'd let it slide. Needless to say, this hobby needs artisans like you and Craig and Bob. So there! (sticking tongue out) Grumpy Thebes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 I'm sorry guys, but barring any response from this company, why should I modify my view? You shouldn't and posted valid concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Thank you. Now the funny thing is although I check into Technical on a regular basis, I seldom post anything, and it's usually a question, because everybody in this section has vastly superior technical chops, knows things like math and other strange stuff, and has a bigger brain then me. As a matter of fact, when I think of Technical, my mind's eye always has an image of the Martians in "Mars Attacks". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AEA Audio Posted May 1, 2015 Author Share Posted May 1, 2015 (edited) Interesting and detailed post, but I gotta tell ya true there is a lot in what you are doing that doesn't make sense to me. Why would you pull transformers on 50 year old equipment many with delicate, ready-to-crack usually cloth leads? You could easily ruin those transformers. I can't believe that adding soap and water to carbon pots can possibly be good for them. Why are you replacing power supply caps and not upgrading the power supply? Why cheap orange drops and those power supply caps seem awful small for the voltages involved. I don't recall Scott using Russian tubes. Is this some sort of late model or are you keeping the originals and replacing them with aftermarket? Yes it looks shiney, but I'd be very reluctant to call this a proper restoration. Nice bling, though. What I see here is shinola and little else. Do you want to have a statement piece or an amp that's been upgraded to Actually most transformers are quite robust and the insulation and wiring is more often than not not "brittle or crumbling." We have yet to see such a case, but you're right in that some really old amps can have transformer wiring in such a condition. However if the insulation is indeed crumbling, it needs to be repaired for safety and longevity reasons. Such repairs are not so difficult since the leads coming out of a transformer actually terminate inside the transformer where they are connected to the special wire used for the windings. I certainly understand how you feel about water and cleaning detergents. Many people are a bit shocked to hear that soap and water cleaning is actually good for potentiometers, switches and other components, but they soon find that this is an old tried-and true technique that has been used for years, and is highly effective in removing the corrosive buildup that makes old controls noisy and intermittent. In fact, there are many good tutorials and videos online on restoring old tube equipment that document these methods and the terrific results they bring. Yes, I know the size of the capacitors must be shocking. There has been a great deal of technical advancements in capacitor design and manufacturing over the past 50 years. Today's electrolytic capacitors are much smaller, and much better, than what was available back in the 50's and 60s. The caps we use actually have more capacitance (up to 200% more), higher voltage ratings, lower ESR and can tolerate higher temperatures than the original parts. Plus they are a lot smaller and have a much longer life-span rating. We take advantage of the smaller form factor by disconnecting the old-fashioned metal can capacitors and wiring in their replacements under the chassis. That way we preserve the original aesthetics of the vintage amps, while vastly improving their power supply's performance. As for coupling and bypass capacitors, we select the best type of caps for each particular circuit. The caps you are referring to in the photo are CDE polypropylene types, specifically made for top performance in the types of bypass circuits we install them in. As with all the caps we use, they are chosen for superior sonic performance, and are of a much higher rating and quality than the originals. Yes, replacement tubes are often a problem with vintage amps. We only replace tubes that are at or near the end of their service life. As for Russian tubes, the ones we choose to use are of high quality, and are completely tested by us to perform as well as the originals in the particular vintage amp we are installing them in. We do this selection process by detailed tube performance analysis with our curve tracer. This allows us to test the tubes under the exact same operating conditions of the amplifier they will be placed into. By doing curve tracing, we can match the performance characteristics of a replacement tube with the performance curves published for the vintage tube it is replacing. This is the only way to be certain the tubes will perform the same as the originals. Replacing and matching vintage tubes is a really important area that we have done a lot of technical research in. Our website has a lot of information about why and how to use curve tracers for this, and why common "tube testers" don't provide the detailed information required to do this properly. What we strive for in our restorations is to bring the vintage amp back to or surpass its original performance level, while enhancing its physical condition. Removing tarnish is a big part of restoring the original reliability and sonic performance, as well as the appearance. Yes, these amplifiers did have a good amount of 'bling' when they were new, with copper or cadmium plating and lots of shiny metal, especially compared to the modern "sterile box' look of many SS amps. We feel that this is part of their charm. Removing 50 plus years of tarnish not only restores their good looks, it improves their reliability, sonic performance, and their long-term value. As far as upgrades go, we offer a lot of them, including regulated power supplies, improved biasing circuitry, soft-start high voltage, and even custom total gut and rebuild performance mods. We feel many of these modifications are the types of things the original designers would have done if the technology had been available back then. Fact is, that we have been designing and manufacturing high-end audio gear since the 70's. Saul Marantz and Avery Fisher were on our advisory board back then, and we feel a deep commitment to helping keep their legacies alive. Edited May 1, 2015 by AEA Audio 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang guy Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Advertisement or not, the world needs more people who restore Fisher equipment. I love Fisher. AEA, your response was very professional, and you did not become defensive in answering. That's a good thing. Just for my edification, when you replace a tube that is bad, do you return the tube replaced with the restored equipment as a matter of procedure, or is it on special request? Thebes had a valid concern there, as it is common practice on fleabay for folks to buy something, take the tubes or whatever piece they need, return the unit, then get ebay/paypal to reimburse them. We have all been bitten by stuff like this, and it makes us punchy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 AEA, your response was very professional, and you did not become defensive in answering. That's a good thing. I agree...!!!! I enjoyed viewing your rebuild posted and some very good tips in your post also..! miketn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Marty, I wasn't really accusing you of shilling, honest. So I apologize for that - I didn't expect the comment to be taken seriously. I personally have no problem with a credible company coming out here and showcasing their work. Most of the units in their store are very reasonably priced - at least, I think they are. They're beautiful, and if they back their work - this is good for anyone here looking for a turn-key tube solution. Signed, Cranky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshnich Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 (edited) Interesting and detailed post, but I gotta tell ya true there is a lot in what you are doing that doesn't make sense to me. Why would you pull transformers on 50 year old equipment many with delicate, ready-to-crack usually cloth leads? You could easily ruin those transformers. I can't believe that adding soap and water to carbon pots can possibly be good for them. Why are you replacing power supply caps and not upgrading the power supply? Why cheap orange drops and those power supply caps seem awful small for the voltages involved. I don't recall Scott using Russian tubes. Is this some sort of late model or are you keeping the originals and replacing them with aftermarket? Yes it looks shiney, but I'd be very reluctant to call this a proper restoration. Nice bling, though. What I see here is shinola and little else. Do you want to have a statement piece or an amp that's been upgraded toqualifications. Edited May 1, 2015 by joshnich Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 (edited) Marty, I wasn't really accusing you of shilling, honest. So I apologize for that - I didn't expect the comment to be taken seriously. I personally have no problem with a credible company coming out here and showcasing their work. Most of the units in their store are very reasonably priced - at least, I think they are. They're beautiful, and if they back their work - this is good for anyone here looking for a turn-key tube solution. Signed, Cranky and you know they are credible how? They appeared out of the clear blue sky less then a week ago.... there is ZERO customer comments anywhere to be found on the internet... The domain name was filed for about 8 months ago and the website went live just recently...They maybe the cats meow but honestly folks we have all been down this road before tread lightly and do not believe everything you read just because it has nice icing on it...the cake could be sour. Many of the comments in his reply to Marty are flat out ludicrous....any seasoned vintage technician will agree with me 100%...messing around inside a vintage piece of iron without just cause is asking for disaster... anyone that doesn't believe me just let me know I'll ship you a few to tear apart and you can see for yourself what they look and feel like on the inside after 50 years of hot/cold cycles and poor storage conditions! I'll even pay the shipping.... If left alone they are just fine.... if disturbed you can easily destroy them. Can you tear apart a transformer and replace the leads....absolutely....should you is an entirely different matter. I for one would like to see links to all this reference material available on the internet to backup his submersion approach to cleaning. He mentions the Ham Radio crowd...well my father and grandfather were both WW2 era ham radio restorers and they never did anything of the kind without 100% tear down to the raw chassis. Another absolute here is the Fisher he did in this post was already in darn nice condition and could have been restored to absolute beautiful condition without submersion.... I mean come on folks all it had was a little bit of grime on the chassis around the transformers..... The parts installed under the chassis on this rebuild cost about $30..... they are not the cheapest available but darn close.... Edited May 4, 2015 by NOSValves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 I for one would like to see links to all this reference material available on the internet to backup his submersion approach to cleaning Just google: Ultrasonic Cleaning of electronics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Yup and I see nothing about vintage tube gear.... I do see references to fire restoration which in my experience is the most unscrupulous bunch on the planet.... Come on Mike get a grip, look at all the original parts in this fisher that were submerged in liquid, carbon resistors, all the tone control caps, mica caps, ceramic disc caps..... none of this stuff is water/liquid tight..... contamination is the huge issue with these parts.... have you ever seen the water that will bubble out of a carbon resistor if subject to an over current state that has "not" been submerged in water? This is absolutely insane but in the audio business the more insane something is the more gullible the crowd becomes. This has all kinds of bling but no meat and potatoes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaddeus Smith Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 "crankyrestomeister" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 (edited) Come on Mike get a grip, look at all the original parts in this fisher that were submerged in liquid, carbon resistors, all the tone control caps, mica caps, ceramic disc caps..... none of this stuff is water/liquid tight..... contamination is the huge issue with these parts.... have you ever seen the water that will bubble out of a carbon resistor if subject to an over current state that has "not" been submerged in water? This is absolutely insane but in the audio business the more insane something is the more gullible the crowd becomes. This has all kinds of bling but no meat and potatoes! 1st I'm not going to get in a debate about this and will make a few comments. To begin with you are incorrect in that most all the capacitors are sealed to the outside environment or they wouldn't have any reasonable life span. Yes Craig I have seen many burnt resistors but what that has to do with ultrasonic cleaning I don't understand your point. Yes Craig in my servicing career I have washed down many a circuit board due to spills and other contaminants and if done properly and dried properly it is a good way and sometimes the only way to restore equipment. The Ultrasonic Cleaning method has been around for many decades (when done properly which includes proper drying methods) and should not be looked at as some gimmick. The cleaning time is often a few minutes and is not the long soaking time that some might think. Guys it's OK to ask questions when something seems odd or counter intuitive but those questions for clarification should be asked in a respectful manner..!!! Just because something or someone is unknown or new to us does not give us the right to make innuendos and this is happening to much on this forum IMHO. AEA has done nothing here but show their work and seems to be very happy to share tips and answer questions about their methods and work. Maybe they will be kind enough to share more info about the Ultrasonic Method they use and that might help give a better understanding for everyone. miketn Edited May 1, 2015 by mikebse2a3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 (edited) Mike, most capacitors are "unprotected". Almost all of them are prone to air and moisture issues over a reasonably short period of time - normally about ten years. Film and foil types are less prone to these issues since the leads are soldered. If they are submerging capacitors, well, that would bad - I guess I somehow missed that. Edited May 1, 2015 by Crankysoldermeister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Did you read their history. Rather fascinating, building audio consoles back in the day. I looked at the CEO's LinkedIn page... rather impressive! https://www.linkedin.com/pub/ken-leonard/11/798/558 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 Mike, most capacitors are "unprotected". Almost all of them are prone to air and moisture issues over a reasonably short period of time - normally about ten years. Film and foil types are less prone to these issues since the leads are soldered. If they are submerging capacitors, well, that would bad - I guess I somehow missed that. Dean most capacitors are sealed (protected or moisture resistant protection if you will) in one form or another but like anything some are sealed better than others and all can have failures of course. https://www.google.com/#q=capacitors+sealed+from+moisture Craig did a nice job with his detective work. If they've only had a registered domain name for eight months, where were they before that. It's a curious thing for sure. Just visit their website for some interesting history. By the way one other comment about old failing wire insulation mentioned in earlier post and that is it should be replaced if observed even in transformers(which isn't really that difficult) and not ignored because it could easily lead to shock and fire hazards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators dtel's wife Posted May 1, 2015 Moderators Share Posted May 1, 2015 Did you read their history. Rather fascinating, building audio consoles back in the day. I looked at the CEO's LinkedIn page... rather impressive! https://www.linkedin.com/pub/ken-leonard/11/798/558 I thought so too!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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