Scrappydue Posted August 6, 2015 Author Share Posted August 6, 2015 No, all subs don't sound the same. Most people plop down a sub and compare it to another sub they owned. There is a lot that goes into truly setting up a sub correctly. Many don't have advance DSP/PEQ, ect. It is my opinion, people asking about musical subs are way off in their questioning since the room is 50% of what you hear. I have owned around 15 different subs and use to think along the same lines until I really spent a lot of time with setup and optimization. It is my belife that tight or flabby bass is related to room location, crossover point, listener location, standing waves, reverb, room bass decay, roll-off and room modes for the most part assuming the sub is decent to start with. Sure one sub may sound different in the same spot, two different people still look different in the same spot. The midrange and upper bass provide the tightness and transient response that people are putting completely on the sub. Try several different subs without the other speakers on and you will not notice that much difference. The key is, all the things I listed can be manipulated in the setup process. ill agree with you somewhat. and i know setup is a crucial aspect in the bass department. but you can't polish a terd. crappy subs can sound better in certain spots than others, but dont confuse people by saying dsp/eq/setup can make a poopy sub sound like a million bucks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 It is my belife that tight or flabby bass is related to room location, crossover point, listener location, standing waves, reverb, room bass decay, roll-off and room modes for the most part assuming the sub is decent to start with. And phase. To me, phase (between sub and mains) that is slightly off smears bass more than anything. I think this is likely a huge issue but I'm not entirely sure how to fix it properly. I assume you play a sine wave close to the crossover point then play with the phase until you get the highest SPL. Not real sure though, other than just play with it until you think it sounds good. Not real sure how the technical aspects of doing stuff like mixing a sealed sub with ported mains works either, seems like even in a best case scenario there's still going to be some sloppiness around the crossover point when playing music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjptkd Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Try several different subs without the other speakers on and you will not notice that much difference. This has not been my experience at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I assume you play a sine wave close to the crossover point then play with the phase until you get the highest SPL. Correct, then play some music with a lot of kick drum and string bass. Have someone move the adjustable phase knob on the sub amp until the attack and delay on the kick drums and string bass are precise. It's not hard to hear the difference. I've never mixed sealed and ported so I'm no help there. I'm of the "multiples of the same make and model sub" camp. I've heard of others trying it and liking it but I have no idea of what they're comparing their set ups to. Most people really like what they have and think it's the bees knees till they hear something better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) Most people really like what they have and think it's the bees knees till they hear something better. Yeah that's aggravating. Personally I usually try to assume each piece of equipment I own is a POS until it proves me wrong. Edited August 6, 2015 by MetropolisLakeOutfitters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 (edited) ill agree with you somewhat. and i know setup is a crucial aspect in the bass department. but you can't polish a terd. crappy subs can sound better in certain spots than others, but dont confuse people by saying dsp/eq/setup can make a poopy sub sound like a million bucks Look at this quote. It says if the sub is decent to start with. No, all subs don't sound the same. Most people plop down a sub and compare it to another sub they owned. There is a lot that goes into truly setting up a sub correctly. Many don't have advance DSP/PEQ, ect. It is my opinion, people asking about musical subs are way off in their questioning since the room is 50% of what you hear. I have owned around 15 different subs and use to think along the same lines until I really spent a lot of time with setup and optimization. It is my belife that tight or flabby bass is related to room location, crossover point, listener location, standing waves, reverb, room bass decay, roll-off and room modes for the most part assuming the sub is decent to start with. Sure one sub may sound different in the same spot, two different people still look different in the same spot. The midrange and upper bass provide the tightness and transient response that people are putting completely on the sub. Try several different subs without the other speakers on and you will not notice that much difference. The key is, all the things I listed can be manipulated in the setup process. Edited August 6, 2015 by derrickdj1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted August 7, 2015 Author Share Posted August 7, 2015 ill agree with you somewhat. and i know setup is a crucial aspect in the bass department. but you can't polish a terd. crappy subs can sound better in certain spots than others, but dont confuse people by saying dsp/eq/setup can make a poopy sub sound like a million bucks Look at this quote. It says if the sub is decent to start with. No, all subs don't sound the same. Most people plop down a sub and compare it to another sub they owned. There is a lot that goes into truly setting up a sub correctly. Many don't have advance DSP/PEQ, ect. It is my opinion, people asking about musical subs are way off in their questioning since the room is 50% of what you hear. I have owned around 15 different subs and use to think along the same lines until I really spent a lot of time with setup and optimization. It is my belife that tight or flabby bass is related to room location, crossover point, listener location, standing waves, reverb, room bass decay, roll-off and room modes for the most part assuming the sub is decent to start with. Sure one sub may sound different in the same spot, two different people still look different in the same spot. The midrange and upper bass provide the tightness and transient response that people are putting completely on the sub. Try several different subs without the other speakers on and you will not notice that much difference. The key is, all the things I listed can be manipulated in the setup process. i see it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prerich Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I think subwoofer driver/transducer "speed" and transient response is BS. There's even been tests to prove it is BS. However, I do believe enclosure design and amps can in fact make a sub sound sloppier than others on music. I don't believe that rap is a good indication of this either. Bass drum is the only thing I like to look at, how sharp that attack is. Bass guitar to some extent too, but realistically speaking, all the cool growly sounds coming out of bass guitar tube amps is a product of midbass and midrange, and has MUCH more to do with how well you integrate your mains. If you do this successfully, the bass will sound tight and defined. Same thing with bass drum too, your sharpest attack actually comes out of your tweeters. If you have a large and strong tweeter, you will hear the attack from the beater on the skin come in strong around 4,000 hz. Everything else follows this and the bass sounds tighter, even though what makes it sound that way isn't bass at all. Agreed. As a guy that has done a remix for Kurtis Blow during his gospel career, rap is not a good indicator of "musical bass". Something like Marcus Miller or Stanley Clarke would be better material to ascertain musical bass (bass guitar - and these guys play bass triplets) - along with acoustic drums. I've always said there are only two things that you truly listen to (I'm not saying that other things don't effect the sound). Those two things are speakers and the room itself. The room is a major factor because it's relation to the other object you hear, the speakers. I'm not making the argument that all subs should sound the same - actually quite the opposite - subs will sound different by the way they are tuned and designed, placement is crucial, and room modal issues play a part in every subwoofer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prerich Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 No, all subs don't sound the same. Most people plop down a sub and compare it to another sub they owned. There is a lot that goes into truly setting up a sub correctly. Many don't have advance DSP/PEQ, ect. It is my opinion, people asking about musical subs are way off in their questioning since the room is 50% of what you hear. I have owned around 15 different subs and use to think along the same lines until I really spent a lot of time with setup and optimization. It is my belife that tight or flabby bass is related to room location, crossover point, listener location, standing waves, reverb, room bass decay, roll-off and room modes for the most part assuming the sub is decent to start with. Sure one sub may sound different in the same spot, two different people still look different in the same spot. The midrange and upper bass provide the tightness and transient response that people are putting completely on the sub. Try several different subs without the other speakers on and you will not notice that much difference. The key is, all the things I listed can be manipulated in the setup process. ill agree with you somewhat. and i know setup is a crucial aspect in the bass department. but you can't polish a terd. crappy subs can sound better in certain spots than others, but dont confuse people by saying dsp/eq/setup can make a poopy sub sound like a million bucks. I'll agree with you there - you can't make a poorly designed sub sound good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prerich Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I assume you play a sine wave close to the crossover point then play with the phase until you get the highest SPL. Correct, then play some music with a lot of kick drum and string bass. Have someone move the adjustable phase knob on the sub amp until the attack and delay on the kick drums and string bass are precise. It's not hard to hear the difference. I've never mixed sealed and ported so I'm no help there. I'm of the "multiples of the same make and model sub" camp. I've heard of others trying it and liking it but I have no idea of what they're comparing their set ups to. Most people really like what they have and think it's the bees knees till they hear something better. I've mixed ported and sealed with different sizes to boot ! I've used the Geddes approach (subwoofer swarms) to achieve flat bass response. Here's a graph of unEQ'd subs in my system (I do have room treatments though) As you can see response gets better with each subwoofer addition. Remember - these are without any EQ - with very small dose of PEQ, I'm flat to 20hz (I have a subsonic filter applied a 18hz so I only measure to 20hz). The first sub is sealed - the second sub is identical to the first, and the thrid graph adds two ported subs. I wish I had access to my waterfall graphs - as it showed a ringing at 92hz with one sub - but that ringing totally disappears when all 4 subs are playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derrickdj1 Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Prerich, four subs will give the best room response. I usually scale the the graphs for 20 Hz to 200 Hz since this is the passband for most subs. The graphs are a little easier to see the size of peaks, dips and what is going on at the XO point. 1/6 to 1/12 smoothing is used to takeout some of the sawtooth apperance also for easier interpetation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K5SS Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 So is this the same argument that all amplifiers should sound the same? Either they're reproducing the frequencies correctly or they're not? I have had MANY different subwoofers and have compared many head to head, usually in the same room / same exact location by swapping them in and out. So if you say its "room related" shouldn't all subs have the same problems in said room? Why would one sub sound so much different in the same exact spot in a room as another? The Velodyne sub I was referring to was the FSR-15. I actually ran one for almost a year and thought it was great-- until I got my hands on my first RSW-15. Absolutely no comparison, the RSW-15 was like "seeing the light" I just couldn't believe how many sub tones were hidden in the music that I never heard before. One of my favorite songs for testing bass is by The Black Eyed Peas, "Boom Boom Pow." With a "good sub" you can hear maybe 6 variations in the bass tones, with a "Musical" sub, such as the RSW-15 you can hear about 12 and the transitions between each tone with the "speed" of the waves actually slowing and accelerating. If you want to test accuracy of a sub, play a good recording of this song and crank it up. I have owned 2 RSW-15's and I can tell you that my Rythmik beats them (never ran them as duals) in just about every measurable way. When I compared them side by side, the RSW-15 I owned at the time got listed on CL that night. There is always something better coming out right around the corner. These Reaction subs seem to be taking one of the top spots for best subwoofers for the $$$. I just can't wait to try one out for myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecraze Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 On the topic of bang for the buck, JTR has a new dual 18" slot ported sub (40" x 40" x 21") for $1799. Ought to be a beast. http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/captivator-218ht/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjptkd Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I have owned 2 RSW-15's and I can tell you that my Rythmik beats them (never ran them as duals) in just about every measurable way. I was not trying to imply that the RSW-15 is the best sub in the world. My point was that different subs sound different. The RSW-15 is a very accurate sub though and in a small to mid-sized room it can be quite impressive. I myself have moved on to a pair of Ultra 2's and have been quite happy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I was not trying to imply that the RSW-15 is the best sub in the world. Maybe not but a darn great one for music and one that can hold it's own in most HT applications. My point was that different subs sound different. They do in many examples but I have been fortunate that my current HT sub ensemble(twin RT-10d's, SB-13 Plus, B15) happens to have very similar tonal characteristics and blend very well together in spite of the driver size differences(10's, 13, and 15). The RSW-15 is a very accurate sub though and in a small to mid-sized room it can be quite impressive. Agree totally. I myself have moved on to a pair of Ultra 2's and have been quite happy. How could you not be. Bill 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K5SS Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) What are Ultra 2's? Looks like you are in Shohomish, I might have to come check your system out one day;) Nevermind, just realized the Ultra 2's are the THX subs. Nice! Edited August 9, 2015 by K5SS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 (edited) What are Ultra 2's? Refer to next post down. Bill Edited August 9, 2015 by willland 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrappydue Posted August 9, 2015 Author Share Posted August 9, 2015 Nope Klipsch thx ultra 2 subs I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willland Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Nope Klipsch thx ultra 2 subs I'm sure. You are correct, I did not catch the Ultra 2 part. Scratch my last post. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nismo Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 On the sub front... I might be switching my interest from the: VTF-15H MK2 with 2000w peak / 600w cont / 16Hz ported / 22Hz sealed. To the: ULS-15 MK2 with 2000w peak / 600w cont / 20Hz sealed.... which is now looking better & better. The Dual-Drive package would be a great value option with a lot of punch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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