Hi-Tech is Making Hi-Fi Very Affordable

[Jim Naseum]

Fully agree, jo56. 100.00 class D amp on high efficiency speakers is, IMHO, equal to or superior to any SS amp at any price. Obviously others mileage will vary. That's fine. However, for those of us who don't listen to dollar signs it's a wonderful time!

Dave

You got it brother man!

To deny the technical cost/benefit breakthrough in audio would be like saying today's $1,000 I7 Desktop is no improvement over a 1975 calculator.

The best DAC chips are readily available at ridiculously low prices. That's the whole beauty of digital audio -- massive scale and cost of silicon going down yearly. Moore's law is working for digital audio just like for computers. This model is 180 degrees different than the old analog model where you start with a 15 pound copper transformer and a massive steel chassis and 6 sheets of plywood and so on.

The DAC chip is but a SMALL part of the design, while the chip may be cheap there lies another 90% of the product to be complete........................No one is saying you can not get decent sound on the cheap, I am saying IMHO you wont get HIFI SQ on the cheap

Now if decent sound is your idea of HIFI thats great this is all subjective after all what you consider good sound I may consider dribble and vice versa, and you very well may be able to put YOUR interpretation of HIFI SOUND together for 500,

Make no mistake though that is your perception of sound and not the majorities perception

The DAC chip itself is the heart of the DAC product. Virtually all of the tested specifications of the product depend on this chip. It's not a "small part " of the design it's the dominant element.

And I'm not in any way trying to define what is HiFiSQ. My point is let 100 audiophiles pick. If they pick system A as often as system B, what would be your conclusion?

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[Jim Naseum]

The best dac chip in existence is the TI 1704. It's about $20 in small quantity. Anyone can get it. A couple guys in a garage can begin building DACs for a couple hundred bucks. A huge player with scale can get those for $6 and build DAC for peanuts using the best chip in the world.

This is the exact reason we don't see $10,000 Core I7 desktop PCs. It would be a known farce and ripoff. I7 chip is a commodity, and scale drives down the price of PCs to ridiculously cheap prices, precisely because they all use the same chip, and then they pick from a list of maybe 5 different support chips, and bingo, you have a PC. Audio was never like this during the days of big received and tube amps and all that. But now that audio is just a certain kind of computer, it benefits from all the advantages of scale that are inherent in silicon design. The DAC is just a commodity.

Ask any guy who owns a $2000 DAC if he also owns a $20,000 Intel PC? I bet he laughs.

Audio guys are still using the mystique of the 1970s analog era and trying to apply it to the new digital audio world. Doesn't work!

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Edited September 22, 2015 by jo56steph74

[wvu80]

Fully agree, jo56.  100.00 class D amp on high efficiency speakers is, IMHO, equal to or superior to any SS amp at any price.  Obviously others mileage will vary.  That's fine.  However, for those of us who don't listen to dollar signs it's a wonderful time!

 

Dave

 

I've never fully understood all those different classes of amps, Dave.  From my younger years I generally knew that Class A was audiophile class, B was a notch down, then there were A/B hybrids, then there are the Inuke type amps everyone uses for subs.  After that I get lost.

 

Can you give me a couple of examples of Class D amps you like?

Edited September 22, 2015 by wvu80

[teaman]

Just my two cents but I would take the Klipsch B3 bookshelf speakers in a heartbeat over those Pioneer you mentioned off the top. The whole Pioneer line left me less than impressed in the speaker category.

 

There are plenty of well built, well priced options to build a fair to good entry level system today though. The more you shop around, the more deals you find.

[teaman]

I own a pair of Outlaw Audio M2200 mono blocks and they pale in comparison with my Emotiva UPA-1 mono blocks even though they are similarly rated. I believe the Outlaws are Class D orG or something. Nice clarity and overall they are acceptable but they lack in the punch and in your face department.

[J M O N]

Conditioning.  They still react with enlightenment when exposed to high quality audio.  Some even imprint enough to begin to expect more.

 

Not too long ago I had a friend over who had never heard or seen my system.  This friend is highly familiar and experienced with modern technology but audio somehow did not fall within his reach.  I had mentioned to him at one time that I used tube amplifiers in my sound system.  When he was over, he saw somthing in my home and asked if it was a tube amplifier (it wasn't, I can't remember if it iwas even a piece of audio equipment or something else).  I asked him if he wanted to see what a tube amplifier looked like and he said "Sure!"  Well, as you can imagine, I also let him listen to my system which was definitely ennlightening to him.  He was not aware of the sound quality that was possible and was simply amazed.  He was more familiar with listening to music on his computer as background music.  He commented to me that "with sound like this, you can just sit down and do nothing at all but listen to the music!"  I say, "yeah, that's what I do!"  I know it definitely left an impression on him.  Heck, while I was using my best electronics, the speakers I was using at that time were amongst my lowest quality.  If I had my Klipschorns set up, I think it would've really knocked his socks off.

 

For high quality audio to not become a "declining industry," those with good sound systems need to share the experience with those out there that just don't realize what is possible (and has been for many decades).

[Jim Naseum]

Just my two cents but I would take the Klipsch B3 bookshelf speakers in a heartbeat over those Pioneer you mentioned off the top. The whole Pioneer line left me less than impressed in the speaker category.

There are plenty of well built, well priced options to build a fair to good entry level system today though. The more you shop around, the more deals you find.

Cool! Tell me about the B3. What did you like better about it? How much are they? I'm all about discovery here for this little system.

Edit. I see B3 is no longer made. When I looked for bookshelf speakers the lowest current Klipsch I saw was $500.

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Edited September 22, 2015 by jo56steph74

[twk123]

 

 

Anyway, it seems to me that the broad younger populace thinks of music as merely "tunes". No wonder audio bricks and mortar seems to be on a downward slide.

 

Conditioning.  They still react with enlightenment when exposed to high quality audio.  Some even imprint enough to begin to expect more.  It will change.  Storage space as basically cheap enough to where it is no longer an issue and we aren't too far away from adequate bandwidth to the point the compression becomes unnecessary. 

 

Do I expect some sort of reactionary new world of everyone into high end audio?  Of course not...but I do foresee a time when it will at least return to the levels of the 60s and 70s where far more aspire to it and others recognize it.

 

Dave

 

It was the great musical artists of the 60's and 70's that got most of us into music, and high end audio. I don't see this repeating. It would take a new music revolution to get youngsters into music, like we did back in the day...

 

 

It sounds counter intuitive but EDM (Electronic Dance Music) is actually coming full circle and incorporating more live instrumentation. Especially new pioneering artists like Lindsey Stirling and even Pretty Lights who had the Colorado Symphony play with him at Redrocks:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGAv_e2SPEw

 

 

I start every morning with some smooth Deep House on my KG 5.5s with my coffee before heading to work.

[YK Thom]

I agree with the premise,,my current Marantz CD6005 which I bought a couple years ago for about 650 absolutely blows away the NAD unit I bought in the early eighties for about 1400 1980s dollars.

Even speakers, my Klipsch RB61 IIs cost a third of my early 80s (1985 to be exact ), EV Interface Cs. My Reference are hands down more detailed and suited for both TV, Movies and two channel stereo listening.

[MyOwn]

 

Conditioning.  They still react with enlightenment when exposed to high quality audio.  Some even imprint enough to begin to expect more.

 

Not too long ago I had a friend over who had never heard or seen my system.  This friend is highly familiar and experienced with modern technology but audio somehow did not fall within his reach.  I had mentioned to him at one time that I used tube amplifiers in my sound system.  When he was over, he saw somthing in my home and asked if it was a tube amplifier (it wasn't, I can't remember if it iwas even a piece of audio equipment or something else).  I asked him if he wanted to see what a tube amplifier looked like and he said "Sure!"  Well, as you can imagine, I also let him listen to my system which was definitely ennlightening to him.  He was not aware of the sound quality that was possible and was simply amazed.  He was more familiar with listening to music on his computer as background music.  He commented to me that "with sound like this, you can just sit down and do nothing at all but listen to the music!"  I say, "yeah, that's what I do!"  I know it definitely left an impression on him.  Heck, while I was using my best electronics, the speakers I was using at that time were amongst my lowest quality.  If I had my Klipschorns set up, I think it would've really knocked his socks off.

 

For high quality audio to not become a "declining industry," those with good sound systems need to share the experience with those out there that just don't realize what is possible (and has been for many decades).

 

JMON, this is exactly what folks like us should be doing...I've always thought having folks over for a beer and a listening is a wonderful thing.

[tromprof]

The rate of change in these products is also amazing. Most of my firm beliefs in what a good DAC or amp should look like and how much they should cost have gone completely out the window over the last five years. Five years ago I powered my K-horns with an 80 pound plus 300B tube amp. Now I use a small Teac class D amp with a built in DAC that weighs a few pounds and is the size of a hard back book. Price difference between the two new is around $2000. Soundwise, I prefer the Teac. Old fashioned horns are still the best but we are lucky to live in an age where what we feed them with keeps getting better and cheaper.

[Mallette]

 

Fully agree, jo56.  100.00 class D amp on high efficiency speakers is, IMHO, equal to or superior to any SS amp at any price.  Obviously others mileage will vary.  That's fine.  However, for those of us who don't listen to dollar signs it's a wonderful time!

 

Dave

 

I've never fully understood all those different classes of amps, Dave.  From my younger years I generally knew that Class A was audiophile class, B was a notch down, then there were A/B hybrids, then there are the Inuke type amps everyone uses for subs.  After that I get lost.

 

Can you give me a couple of examples of Class D amps you like?

 

Go Parts Express and look at the Class D offerings.  Read the user reviews.  Remember Kevin's big stacks at Hope?  Crown Class D driven.  Pissing off the neighbors at 1.4 miles for a few hundred bucks!  Many of us buy used Panasonic SA-XR receivers as excellent all in one boxes.  The explanation above about the cost of PC parts is a really good one.  One of the more expensive components of a normal amp is the transformer which is totally unnecessary on Class D (aside from the power supply).  That's also why they are so cheap. 

 

Class D amps are, also as mentioned above, on the way to becoming commodities and the general build quality is improving all the time.  Even at the huge difference in cost I have guessed that one of the reasons staunch SS folks don't like them is that SS totally clinical and transparent while the damping factor on Class D gives them a slightly "tubey" sound about half way between SS and tubes. 

 

For me there are no "rights" and "wrongs" in audio, just what sounds good to YOU. 

 

Dave

[Ski Bum]

 

Fully agree, jo56.  100.00 class D amp on high efficiency speakers is, IMHO, equal to or superior to any SS amp at any price.  Obviously others mileage will vary.  That's fine.  However, for those of us who don't listen to dollar signs it's a wonderful time!

 

Dave

 

I've never fully understood all those different classes of amps, Dave.  From my younger years I generally knew that Class A was audiophile class, B was a notch down, then there were A/B hybrids, then there are the Inuke type amps everyone uses for subs.  After that I get lost.

 

Can you give me a couple of examples of Class D amps you like?

 

Here is a thorough explanation.

[Jim Naseum]

Class D Amps are enjoying the same benefits of silicon scale as DACs. There are only a couple chip sets that make up the bulk of the class D designs. Since there is no heavy iron in the design the cost is dropping with the silicon. There are some sonic personality differences between D amps, but the essential specs are all the same for obvious reasons. This is a major boon for anyone just getting into HiFi, like students.

The beginning system of today is way, WAY better than the beginning system of 1975. Today's entry system is probably better than a high end system of 1975 (aside from sheer loudness). But in terms of distortion, noise, clarity and detail, today's low cost systems are miles ahead of 1975. And they use a fraction of the energy! And they are more reliable. And they take up lead space. Quite an evolution.

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[Jim Naseum]

Just my two cents but I would take the Klipsch B3 bookshelf speakers in a heartbeat over those Pioneer you mentioned off the top. The whole Pioneer line left me less than impressed in the speaker category.

There are plenty of well built, well priced options to build a fair to good entry level system today though. The more you shop around, the more deals you find.

Cool! Tell me about the B3. What did you like better about it? How much are they? I'm all about discovery here for this little system.

Edit. I see B3 is no longer made. When I looked for bookshelf speakers the lowest current Klipsch I saw was $500.

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Just my two cents but I would take the Klipsch B3 bookshelf speakers in a heartbeat over those Pioneer you mentioned off the top. The whole Pioneer line left me less than impressed in the speaker category.

There are plenty of well built, well priced options to build a fair to good entry level system today though. The more you shop around, the more deals you find.

Cool! Tell me about the B3. What did you like better about it? How much are they? I'm all about discovery here for this little system.

Edit. I see B3 is no longer made. When I looked for bookshelf speakers the lowest current Klipsch I saw was $500.

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http://www.klipsch.com/R-14M/details

You are talking about 85 db speakers vs 90 db. The Klipsch will be more dynamic with a better resale. The klipsch hold their value far better than most speakers, in other words a better investment. For $50 more you can get these with 94 db sensitivity. Speakers with 85 sensitivity will not show the detail of say 94 db speaker.

http://www.klipsch.com/R-15M/details

Thanks! $249 is still more than I wanted to spend on this little system, and I definitely did not have a need for the loudest playing speaker. I listen at normal levels to protect my ears (I never heard that thing about efficiency affecting detail). I do plan on trying some more new speakers competitive to the ones I got, as long as the cost is low. I've been kind of amazed at how good inexpensive audio has become. It's fascinating.

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[Jim Naseum]

Why great DACs are cheap.

 

Here's a very typical schematic for a DAC. This DAC will sound great. It consists of only three basic blocks. 1. A cheap and generic cookbook power supply. All the parts here total less than $5. 2. A very typical cookbook OpAmp section. Depending on choice of OpAmp, this might cost anywhere from $2 to say, $25 at the top. 3. The heart and function of the whole thing is the DAC chip itself. These chips can be $5 to $25 or so but in high volume, these become 1/10th of that cost. The remaining cost is a small metal enclosure, some connectors and the PC board. This can be built by a high schooler using free PCB design software. 

 

When I say this DAC sounds great, what I mean is that it will be within a few percent of the best DAC you can buy. That's the leveling action of digital silicon at work. Chip designers are not designing to "audiophile" requirements. They design for specs, efficiency and low cost. They drive the cost/performance curve straight down over a very short time. That idea was not possible in the analog/linear era. You could not drive the cost of 30 pound copper transformers down, or 10 pounds of aluminum heatsinking. 

 

Logic says that in a very short time, a thumb drive DAC will cost $10 retail, and sound as good as any $2000 DAC. Just look at what is inside a $100 smart phone to see the principle. 

 

[LarryC]

A new item getting a lot of favorable audio press right now is Audioquest's Jitterbug.  It is described as a USB noise filter for DAC's, that is very similar to AQ's Dragonfly in its small thumb-drive size and convenience.  Also like the Dragonfly, it was engineered by Gordon Rankin and AQ's Steve Silberman.  Best of all, it costs only $50 or thereabouts, cheaper even than the Dragonfly.

 

I'm not sure how it works, or all the ways it can be put into a system.  It can connected in series with a USB device like the Dragonfly.  AQ also claims that it can just be plugged into any USB port on your computer for audible improvement across the board.  While that may seem far-fetched, I noticed a similar benefit to the sound quality of a laptop when the earlier Dragonfly, 1.0, is plugged into a any USB port on a MacBook Pro.  

 

BTW, AQ didn't believe me when I made that claim wrt the D/F 1.0.  They eliminated that capability on the upgraded D/F 1.2.  Now, it sounds like this item has that capability again, and now they brag on it.  I believe it.

Edited September 22, 2015 by LarryC

[Chris A]

Wow, that's the best reason I've seen thus far to not use a USB for digital music streams.  Can you imagine that the noise on a USB (a digital bus) is so bad that it causes "jitter"--actually noise envelope over the digital line level that is great enough to AUDIBLY drop enough bits in sequence, or otherwise upset the grounding to the connected components (DACs) to affect their operation?  Bad Karma.

 

1) they provided no measurements or data showing the extent of the problems (and they easily could have),

2) they're using pretty indistinct language  ("parasitic resonances")  for stuff that doesn't need obfuscation - but rather very clear language to describe the issues and in which environments.

 

Perhaps Tom (Quiet_Hollow) has a point about not using USB for digital music streams.  Since I don't use USBs for that purpose (digital music streams), I don't have any more visibility into the issue than what the marketing brochure is embellishing upon. 

 

Chris

Edited September 22, 2015 by Chris A

[Mallette]

Not sure what the precise meaning of "using USB for a music stream" is technically.  Like any other device, it either passes a digital signal or it doesn't.  If it doesn't, your files don't open or your programs don't run. 

I've heard no issues with my Audio Engine DAC with my own recordings...which I know pretty well when something is altering the original as I heard it.  Reading stuff is great...but I really only care about what I hear or don't hear.

Dave

[Jim Naseum]

From the audioquest site: Clearer and more compelling sound, music, dialog. A better experience."

 

I'm calling BS on this. Total floobydust.